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There are no physical punishments in Islam (theory)

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

I'm not going to claim this by knowledge. I'm going to make a theory.



Metaphor and abrogation


The first thing I want to bring about is the issue of metaphor and expressions and needing to know these to understand Quran, in Misbahal Shariah we find:


The Commander of the Faithful said to a judge, 'Do you know the difference between those verses of the Qur'an which abrogate and those which are abrogated?'

'No'.

'Do you have a command of the intentions of Allah in the parables of the Qur'an?'

'No'.

'Then you have perished and caused others to perish,' the Commander of the Faithful replied.

(Imam Jaffar continues)

A judge needs to know the various meanings of the Qur'an, the truth of the Prophetic way, the inward indications, courtesies, consensus and disagreements, and to be familiar with the bases of what they agree upon and disagree about. Then he must have acute discrimination, sound action, wisdom, and precaution. If he has these things, then let him judge.


My comment: There is also the issue is that Quranic verses are situational. One situation it says do this, another situation it says, no longer do that, but do this. This is what Imam Ali (a) means by abrogated and that which abrogates.

This is because morality often deals with different situations. The Sunnah is said to be the same, that certain hadiths are in certain situations and abrogated by other hadiths.

And so you have to have knowledge of all this.

But going back intentions of God in parables, what does this have to do with legislation? This is a serious hint that some statements that were parables were taken literally by people.


The verse about stealing perhaps a parable?


As for the thief, man or woman, cut off their hands as a requital for what they have earned. [That is] an exemplary punishment from Allah, and Allah is all-mighty, all-wise.

Now something to be said, Shiite hadiths say only two fingers (smallest and the one beside it) is to be chopped off. But does this verse allow that?

Sunnis say one hand is to be cut off, but does this verse allow that? It says cut of their hands, that means all their hands...

Another meaning of hands in Quran is power. For example, when it says about Dawood (a) "Thul-Ady" it means he had greater power. Same with describing Ibrahim, Isaac, and Yaqoub (peace be upon them).

Therefore since it can be metaphor, what would it mean in this case?

It would mean keep them from stealing... the power here means in terms of stealing, they should be cut off that power and capability.

Then it says after in the verse if they repent and reform, to let them go.

This can be either house arrest or Jail as well. So how do we know neither is meant? We also see Quran says "may the hands of Abu Lahab be cut off" but everyone understood this as in his influence not actual hands.

Imam Ali (a) dying wish


In Imam Ali (a) last will, he said never to maim anyone as he heard Mohammad (s) say "don't even maim a rabid dog". That means cutting of limbs was never part of Islam per this hadith, which is hard to deny, since it's his last words he spoke.

Imam Ali (a) is the fighter for the interpretation, and here in his dying wish, he makes it clear, Islam does not allow maiming people.

Imam Ali (a) words on beating and Imam Jaffar (a) words on lashing


Imam Jaffar (a) is reported to have said anyone who lashes a creature of God deserves to be lashed by God.

Imam Ali (a) is reported to have said that humans should not be beaten to learn, but rather reasoned to, as only animals can only learn from beating.

Anyways, I've shared those hadiths in the past, but I don't think they hold weight to people but thought I would just mention this.

Surah Nisa on acts of Zina


This chapter says if you find them to leave them in their house till death takes them or God finds another way. This may mean that repentance is required for them to be let go.

It doesn't actually put the time though they are to be in the house.

Another verse says "to bother them" when it comes to homosexual acts a man and a man, and a woman and a woman right after that verse.

What does it mean to bother them? Is every day supposed to be a vacation when in house arrest then how would they reform?

Perhaps bothering them, is by words, but 90 lashes every day is too much.

This leaves an open possibility for Surah Noor to be also metaphorical.

Surah Noor - lashing



In Surah Nisa, we see they are meant to be "bothered". There is two possibilties:

Physical lashing is to occur over 90 day period. Or metaphorical lashing in which they are "bothered" by believers about their crime per the verse in Surah Nisa.

90 at the same time right after each other can kill a person out of too much pain, which has happened in recent times.

If it's the case that lashing is metaphorical, what does it mean for believers to witness their punishment and not to let compassion get in the way of the punishment?

I think house arrest with believers bothering you can be stressful and anxiety provoking, a person might say, they learned their lesson, let them go.... but per this they are to fulfilling their days till we know they truly regret it. If they show no remorse, the time is continued till they do or death overtakes them.


Ahlulbayt (a) words on rulings changed in the Quran and Sunnah


Ahlulbayt heavily emphasized Tahreef in respect to rulings in Quran had taken place. This is why to me it doesn't make sense that Shiite Islamic rulings are almost exact same as Sunni.

Imam Mahdi (a) will be seen to bring a new religion because of how vastly his interpretation of Quran differs from the people of the time.

This can be one of the things, that physical punishments were never part of it.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
I mean, I could say that there is no Prophet in Islam because Mohammed is just a metaphor, but that would be objectively ridiculous at this point because of how Islam is commonly practiced and interpreted by its adherents.

Likewise, your arguments that all of the rules about chopping off people's hands, stoning people, beating wives and children, etc, are metaphorical, is an objectively ridiculous interpretation.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a broader reformation of Islam such that its moral framework was brought more in line with modern civilization. I'm just not sure how that will happen. At least Christianity has so many contradictory passages that you can fixate on the "love your neighbor," "turn the other cheek," and "what you do to the least of us, you do to me" passages to enable the more progressive interpretations. As far as I know, Islam has no such superior moral passages to hook onto. You've cherry-picked the musings of a few Imams, but that will never be as authoritative as the text itself.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Salam

I'm not going to claim this by knowledge. I'm going to make a theory.



Metaphor and abrogation


The first thing I want to bring about is the issue of metaphor and expressions and needing to know these to understand Quran, in Misbahal Shariah we find:


The Commander of the Faithful said to a judge, 'Do you know the difference between those verses of the Qur'an which abrogate and those which are abrogated?'

'No'.

'Do you have a command of the intentions of Allah in the parables of the Qur'an?'

'No'.

'Then you have perished and caused others to perish,' the Commander of the Faithful replied.

(Imam Jaffar continues)

A judge needs to know the various meanings of the Qur'an, the truth of the Prophetic way, the inward indications, courtesies, consensus and disagreements, and to be familiar with the bases of what they agree upon and disagree about. Then he must have acute discrimination, sound action, wisdom, and precaution. If he has these things, then let him judge.


My comment: There is also the issue is that Quranic verses are situational. One situation it says do this, another situation it says, no longer do that, but do this. This is what Imam Ali (a) means by abrogated and that which abrogates.

This is because morality often deals with different situations. The Sunnah is said to be the same, that certain hadiths are in certain situations and abrogated by other hadiths.

And so you have to have knowledge of all this.

But going back intentions of God in parables, what does this have to do with legislation? This is a serious hint that some statements that were parables were taken literally by people.


The verse about stealing perhaps a parable?


As for the thief, man or woman, cut off their hands as a requital for what they have earned. [That is] an exemplary punishment from Allah, and Allah is all-mighty, all-wise.

Now something to be said, Shiite hadiths say only two fingers (smallest and the one beside it) is to be chopped off. But does this verse allow that?

Sunnis say one hand is to be cut off, but does this verse allow that? It says cut of their hands, that means all their hands...

Another meaning of hands in Quran is power. For example, when it says about Dawood (a) "Thul-Ady" it means he had greater power. Same with describing Ibrahim, Isaac, and Yaqoub (peace be upon them).

Therefore since it can be metaphor, what would it mean in this case?

It would mean keep them from stealing... the power here means in terms of stealing, they should be cut off that power and capability.

Then it says after in the verse if they repent and reform, to let them go.

This can be either house arrest or Jail as well. So how do we know neither is meant? We also see Quran says "may the hands of Abu Lahab be cut off" but everyone understood this as in his influence not actual hands.

Imam Ali (a) dying wish


In Imam Ali (a) last will, he said never to maim anyone as he heard Mohammad (s) say "don't even maim a rabid dog". That means cutting of limbs was never part of Islam per this hadith, which is hard to deny, since it's his last words he spoke.

Imam Ali (a) is the fighter for the interpretation, and here in his dying wish, he makes it clear, Islam does not allow maiming people.

Imam Ali (a) words on beating and Imam Jaffar (a) words on lashing


Imam Jaffar (a) is reported to have said anyone who lashes a creature of God deserves to be lashed by God.

Imam Ali (a) is reported to have said that humans should not be beaten to learn, but rather reasoned to, as only animals can only learn from beating.

Anyways, I've shared those hadiths in the past, but I don't think they hold weight to people but thought I would just mention this.

Surah Nisa on acts of Zina


This chapter says if you find them to leave them in their house till death takes them or God finds another way. This may mean that repentance is required for them to be let go.

It doesn't actually put the time though they are to be in the house.

Another verse says "to bother them" when it comes to homosexual acts a man and a man, and a woman and a woman right after that verse.

What does it mean to bother them? Is every day supposed to be a vacation when in house arrest then how would they reform?

Perhaps bothering them, is by words, but 90 lashes every day is too much.

This leaves an open possibility for Surah Noor to be also metaphorical.

Surah Noor - lashing



In Surah Nisa, we see they are meant to be "bothered". There is two possibilties:

Physical lashing is to occur over 90 day period. Or metaphorical lashing in which they are "bothered" by believers about their crime per the verse in Surah Nisa.

90 at the same time right after each other can kill a person out of too much pain, which has happened in recent times.

If it's the case that lashing is metaphorical, what does it mean for believers to witness their punishment and not to let compassion get in the way of the punishment?

I think house arrest with believers bothering you can be stressful and anxiety provoking, a person might say, they learned their lesson, let them go.... but per this they are to fulfilling their days till we know they truly regret it. If they show no remorse, the time is continued till they do or death overtakes them.


Ahlulbayt (a) words on rulings changed in the Quran and Sunnah


Ahlulbayt heavily emphasized Tahreef in respect to rulings in Quran had taken place. This is why to me it doesn't make sense that Shiite Islamic rulings are almost exact same as Sunni.

Imam Mahdi (a) will be seen to bring a new religion because of how vastly his interpretation of Quran differs from the people of the time.

This can be one of the things, that physical punishments were never part of it.
I agree that in the new religion that you have invented, there may be no physical punishments, but in Islam there absolutely, undeniably are.
Hope this helped.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
but in Islam there absolutely, undeniably are.
Hope this helped.

In Islam, Yazeed is Ulil-Amr in 4:59 and Hussain (a) is to be killed per his command.

in Islam, slavery is allowed/endorsed.

I know Islam well enough, so maybe, I should hold on to my "new" religion.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I mean, I could say that there is no Prophet in Islam because Mohammed is just a metaphor, but that would be objectively ridiculous at this point because of how Islam is commonly practiced and interpreted by its adherents.

It's adherents denied Muta and instead made Malakat Aymanihim which was about that to be about slavery. They can't remember what most of the Quran calls to which is Ahlulbayt (a). I can't trust it's adherents.

And the "followers" of Ahlulbayt (a) never helped Imams (a) with enough help during their time, and so how can I expect them to be all guided and trust their scholars - when Imam Hassan Al-Askari (a) showed most scholars of Shiites as well were corrupt.

The religion has not come to us through a pure stream.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It's the choice to be evil or good. God lets us decide.
That assumes everyone is adequately wise and experienced. Many adults are immature and tempted by ideology. They subject their own authority to their idea of God. And if that God demands they be violent, they must obey.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That assumes everyone is adequately wise and experienced. Many adults are immature and tempted by ideology. They subject their own authority to their idea of God. And if that God demands they be violent, they must obey.

God guides though, so for people to given into the forces of Iblis and his sorcery, and let that take over them, without inclining to the light and hardly given Satan a fight, that has consequences.

The Quran is clear in calling to Ahlulbayt (a), it's the sorcery that makes it unclear, but Ahlulbayt (a) clarified it to annul what Iblis lied about it and manifest it's clear signs. To prefer the falsehood of Iblis and not given God's sent ones a chance to clarify, to me, that is an evil that can't be forgiven.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
God guides though, so for people to given into the forces of Iblis and his sorcery, and let that take over them, without inclining to the light and hardly given Satan a fight, that has consequences.
I assume your God created Iblis and put this influence in front of the people it created?

If so, the God should equip these poor mortals with sufficient tools and ability to face these struggles. If they can't, then we can't blame the poor fool who falls victim to what God put before them.

The Quran is clear in calling to Ahlulbayt (a), it's the sorcery that makes it unclear, but Ahlulbayt (a) clarified it to annul what Iblis lied about it and manifest it's clear signs. To prefer the falsehood of Iblis and not given God's sent ones a chance to clarify, to me, that is an evil that can't be forgiven.
It sounds like God has lost control and influence over its creation. That is not a competent God. Again, if a God cannot maintain order then it is to blame.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe he can put a stop, but wants to see who will help him in secret and be heroes in his religion and help the leaders appointed by him and help his divine scripture.

This way, we have opportunity to gain value in helping his cause.

Plus, humanity this way, we decide all together our fate as a species.

We fail together or we pass together...
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Maybe he can put a stop, but wants to see who will help him in secret and be heroes in his religion and help the leaders appointed by him and help his divine scripture.
Well there was the multiple Gods before the Hebrews, then Yahweh in Judaism and Christianity, and then evolved into Allah in Islam. Arguably we also have your God as depicted in Mormonism, which has its own divine scripture. Perhaps Islam is obsolete and God thinks Mormonism is the better path for heroes.

This way, we have opportunity to gain value in helping his cause.

Plus, humanity this way, we decide all together our fate as a species.

We fail together or we pass together...
It seems God has created a hugely diverse and disagreeing set of humans. If God is so intent on unity then it is not helping.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Because Ahlulbayt (a) never were given the chance to rule and clarify the religion for everyone.

They don't have to clarify the religion. Allah already did that with the revelation of the Qur'an. I know you're familiar with 5:3, so I don't see how you can say Islam needs on-going clarification.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They don't have to clarify the religion. Allah already did that with the revelation of the Qur'an. I know you're familiar with 5:3, so I don't see how you can say Islam needs on-going clarification.

They don't bring new laws but keep it on track. If they are rejected people may swerve from religion, that's the condition of the covenant. Also you should look up the event of ghadir, since hadiths show "Today I have completed...." was revealed on that occasion.
 
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