There ain't no Jesus here.

[Tumah]

What NT claim do you refer to?

Of Jesus' anything.

 

[Tumah]

No to save himself , would of been to force Gods will on that day if he had of saved himself would of been effectively end of human free will .
It was humanity , not the Jewish per se that crucified him .Is a subjective rejection of god the Crucifixion ?
Even in face of death , he showed no weakness , also he did not force his will on anyone .Is Free religion
Was not the way of Jesus to force anything on anyone even in face of death
Athiesm is acceptable to my philosophy

I don't even.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Shalom aleichem SFTT,

I am sorry that I used the word prejudice. For me it only means that we are all conditioned by our earlier experiences so we have a very particular point of view, and emotional reactions toward certain subjects. I hope to be a better person as my life progresses, and hope that you can forgive my present imperfections.

I agree with you that there are things in Jewish Law that are not appropriate and could be removed, while others-- truly from God-- should remain. Not every Jew will agree with me, but, in my opinion, we all have the right to believe as we choose. If we are to end hatred and violence in the world, isn't it a good idea to show respect for others, no matter what their nationalities, religions, or ethnicities? Aren't we all sharing this same good Earth that we live upon?

It's my hope that we can all find ways to live together in peace and understanding. Afterall, isn't that the basic essence of all religions?

Peace my brother.

Aleichem Shalom
Is no problem is a fine line I draw myself and often push boundries however my agenda is preservation of all Gods religions and nations , intact .
Is a very difficult subject to approach in a world of none trust outside of our own kind .
However we are all gods children , equal in this respect .
Have prejudices myself mammon for example
Was also prejudice against homosexuals also Athiesm sometimes in my life , however by considering an individuals humans rights I was forced to reconsider my own prejudices .
Maybe my expectations of Judaism I set to high , when reality is we are all human and share the same weaknesses.
Jesus was in the christian book , jewish , so to prejudice against his people would be a sin .
However I must speak out , you yourself desire unity
An example , I would never self harm even in grief.

Not to cut oneself or make incisions in one's flesh in grief, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28; Deut. 14:1) (CCN28)

Suggests Christians/Hindu self harm during grief

The law should read

1. Not to cut oneself or make incisions in one's flesh in grief (Lev. 19:28; Deut. 14:1) (CCN28) . Could expand to say under no circumstances must one self harm .However none of the essense of the original law is lost and the prejudice has been removed . I have no other agenda other than the unity our creator intended for all his children . Peace to you friend

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Any Christians out there, ever tried reading the TaNaCH without reading Jesus into it?
Just reading what it says and taking it at face value without the lens of the NT?
I'd be interested to know how you fared and where you had no choice but to read Jesus there for lack of better explanation of the passage.

Very interesting question ^ above ^.

Who fits the bill, so to speak, at Isaiah 11:3-5 other than Jesus ?
Who would be the ' anointed one ' ( Messiah/ Mashiach ) other than Jesus at Daniel 9:26

Daniel 9:24-25 with its full 7-year periods or weeks of years:
Each week, so to speak, was 7 years long. There would be 7 plus 62 of such weeks, thus making a total of 69 weeks of years.
That equals 483 years. The counting point, or when the period began, was when Nehemiah 2:1-3; Nehemiah 2:4-6; Nehemiah 2:7-8 arrived in Jerusalem and began to rebuild the city.
Persian history establishes that date as being 455 BCE
Jesus is the one who came as the Anointed One or Messiah 483 years later.

 

[sojourner]

Of Jesus' anything.

Are you asking a theological, historic, or apologetic question concerning Jesus claims?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

My point is that Jesus disobeyed the law of the Sabbath in the NT.

Are you referring to Luke 6:1-2 ?_______

The true purpose of the Sabbath Law was made void, Not by Jesus, but by the Jewish religious leaders placing un-necessary burdens on the people to their traditions, instead of having the Sabbath serve men to the honor of God.- Matthew 15:3; Matthew 15:6; Matthew 15:9; Matthew 23:2-4; Mark 2:27
Those false religious leaders forbid catching a flea on the Sabbath because to them that was considered as hunting !
A suffering person could Not be helped unless death threatened. They missed the point about showing ' mercy '.
They wanted to have the 'letter' of their customs or traditions followed instead the the 'spirit' of the Constitution of the Mosaic Law.
Jesus observed the Law, Not as the corrupted Pharisees, but as God directed.
Jesus knew it was lawful to do fine things on the Sabbath - Matthew 12:12 - following the ' spirit' of the Law as God intended it to be so.
Rubbing gains in one's hands to eat was Not ' harvesting and threshing ' on the Sabbath.
So, Jesus did Not disobey the Law of the Sabbath, but it was the Rabbinic Sabbath restrictions which was disobeying the whole system of Sabbaths.

 

[Tumah]

Very interesting question ^ above ^.

Who fits the bill, so to speak, at Isaiah 11:3-5 other than Jesus ?

That's silly.

Who would be the ' anointed one ' ( Messiah/ Mashiach ) other than Jesus at Daniel 9:26
It could be any anointed person. Kings, prophets and priests were all anointed. You can actually tell that its not specifically talking about the Messiah because it doesn't use the ה prefix which would denote a specific known X (in this case, a specific known anointed person). Without that letter, it just means, one person among the people that are anointed. So it could mean anyone.

Daniel 9:24-25 with its full 7-year periods or weeks of years:
Each week, so to speak, was 7 years long. There would be 7 plus 62 of such weeks, thus making a total of 69 weeks of years.
That equals 483 years. The counting point, or when the period began, was when Nehemiah 2:1-3; Nehemiah 2:4-6; Nehemiah 2:7-8 arrived in Jerusalem and began to rebuild the city.
Persian history establishes that date as being 455 BCE
Jesus is the one who came as the Anointed One or Messiah 483 years later.

You're only reading it that way, in order to get try to fit Jesus into the text. But there's a few problems:
1. The 7 and 62 weeks are clearly distinct calculations. There's no reason to put them together. In fact, the presence of the ה prefix in verse 26 on the "sixty two weeks" indicates that the 62 weeks are a separate entity.
2. There is absolutely no reason to assume that Nehemiah 2 is the starting point of the prophecy anymore than Ezra 1,6 or 7- except that you want to fit Jesus into it.
3. If you did the math, 455 BCE + 483 = 28 CE. What happened in 28 CE?

Essentially, what you're doing here is reverse engineering. You have some info and you want to get it into Daniel, so you look for any other verses that will get you closer to the answer you want to come out with. But we are talking about when we don't know anything about Jesus. Without Jesus, all we have is context to understand what's going on. The context of the passage is Daniel asking for info about Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple. He is at the end of the 70 year Babylonian exile and is wondering what's going on with the promised redemption. He prays to G-d. G-d sends an angel with a response. Presumably the response will be information about what he asked. He didn't ask about a Messiah, and unless you read it into the text, there's no mention of one. Its just a prophecy about Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple. When they will be returned to their previous states, and eventually when they will once again be destroyed.

 

[Tumah]

Are you asking a theological, historic, or apologetic question concerning Jesus claims?

Specifically, the NY claims that rely on Tanach verses to substantiate their claims of Jesus authenticity as god or prophet.

 

[sojourner]

Specifically, the NY claims that rely on Tanach verses to substantiate their claims of Jesus authenticity as god or prophet.

I think there are two different ways of looking at at Tanach: as texts in their own right (sans Jesus) and as confirmation of Jesus' authenticity (from a more eisegetical perspective). IOW, I think there are some prophecies that can be seen to have been fulfilled -- not literalistically, but in a broader sense -- by Jesus, but I think it's a huge mistake to use that to try to proselytize Jews. The point I'm trying to make is that it's disingenuous to hold Jesus to the paradigm for messiah as presented by ancient Judaism. He didn't fulfill those prophecies exactly. What all Christians acknowledge is that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies according to a new paradigm that effectively changed what it means for God to save us.

 

[FearGod]

Are you referring to Luke 6:1-2 ?_______

The true purpose of the Sabbath Law was made void, Not by Jesus, but by the Jewish religious leaders placing un-necessary burdens on the people to their traditions, instead of having the Sabbath serve men to the honor of God.- Matthew 15:3; Matthew 15:6; Matthew 15:9; Matthew 23:2-4; Mark 2:27
Those false religious leaders forbid catching a flea on the Sabbath because to them that was considered as hunting !
A suffering person could Not be helped unless death threatened. They missed the point about showing ' mercy '.
They wanted to have the 'letter' of their customs or traditions followed instead the the 'spirit' of the Constitution of the Mosaic Law.
Jesus observed the Law, Not as the corrupted Pharisees, but as God directed.
Jesus knew it was lawful to do fine things on the Sabbath - Matthew 12:12 - following the ' spirit' of the Law as God intended it to be so.
Rubbing gains in one's hands to eat was Not ' harvesting and threshing ' on the Sabbath.
So, Jesus did Not disobey the Law of the Sabbath, but it was the Rabbinic Sabbath restrictions which was disobeying the whole system of Sabbaths.

Yes i know and agree.

 

[Tumah]

I think there are two different ways of looking at at Tanach: as texts in their own right (sans Jesus) and as confirmation of Jesus' authenticity (from a more eisegetical perspective). IOW, I think there are some prophecies that can be seen to have been fulfilled -- not literalistically, but in a broader sense -- by Jesus, but I think it's a huge mistake to use that to try to proselytize Jews. The point I'm trying to make is that it's disingenuous to hold Jesus to the paradigm for messiah as presented by ancient Judaism. He didn't fulfill those prophecies exactly. What all Christians acknowledge is that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies according to a new paradigm that effectively changed what it means for God to save us.

And what I am saying is that this type of eisegesis is essentially reverse engineering the text in order to make it conform with a new idea not present in them. In other words, belief in Jesus as the messiah is not predicated on proof texts but on his say so, and then the Tanach is reworked to substantiate that claim. To take it a step further, the NT is taken as factual on Paul's et. al. say so and then the Tanach is made to conform with their works. Doesn't that seem like putting the cart before the horse?

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Specifically, the NY claims that rely on Tanach verses to substantiate their claims of Jesus authenticity as god or prophet.

Not God , manifestation there of , subjectively in touch with rauch
Jesus prayed to God , pray to yourself hmmm not logical, told us to love God .
Men called him God not himself
And he is very least prophet of Islam .
Striking similarities to Hindu manifestation of god Krishna which is interesting .
The son simple concept even if not physically

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Specifically, the NY claims that rely on Tanach verses to substantiate their claims of Jesus authenticity as god or prophet.

Did moses really part the red sea , noah really get all those animal on a diy ark .Did she physically become a pillar of salt
Is narrative I still believe those scriptures
To much narrative in Bibles

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

And what I am saying is that this type of eisegesis is essentially reverse engineering the text in order to make it conform with a new idea not present in them. In other words, belief in Jesus as the messiah is not predicated on proof texts but on his say so, and then the Tanach is reworked to substantiate that claim. To take it a step further, the NT is taken as factual on Paul's et. al. say so and then the Tanach is made to conform with their works. Doesn't that seem like putting the cart before the horse?

Sounds like your describing evolution theory reverse engineering actually starts with a finished product of humans then reverses , still they can not make life from non life chemicals .

 

[sojourner]

And what I am saying is that this type of eisegesis is essentially reverse engineering the text in order to make it conform with a new idea not present in them.

Well, you're right, of course. That's what it is. However, that's essentially what early Xy was doing. You have to remember that Matthew's community basically thought of themselves as the "true Israel."

In other words, belief in Jesus as the messiah is not predicated on proof texts but on his say so, and then the Tanach is reworked to substantiate that claim.

Essentially correct, in that the texts, themselves do not name Jesus, and do not conceptualize righteousness in the same way Jesus does. However, the concept of messiah is present in the texts, so it's not like the whole concept was dreamed up out of whole cloth. I think Jesus as Messiah is more than just "on his say so." There must have been some prevailing thinking along those lines very, very early on in the Movement -- by Jews -- in order for Mark and Q to be written in the way they were, "reverse-engineering the prophecies, so to speak.

To take it a step further, the NT is taken as factual on Paul's et. al. say so and then the Tanach is made to conform with their works. Doesn't that seem like putting the cart before the horse?

I don't think it's as cut and dried or as easy as that. Remember, Paul was preaching less than 18 months after the Jesus Event, so there must have been, as I say, some prevailing thinking along those lines that Paul bought into. But who knows what that historical source was.

 

[rosends]

B-R-A-Sh-I-TH bara Elohim
Taking the numerical powers
B= 2000
R= 200
A= 1000
SH = 300
I = 10
Th = 400
Total 3910 years from beginning to Christ birth

B = Ben the son
R= Rauch the spirit
A = AB the father
Ra****h = the beginning

הבן , רוח , אבא , טריניטי , מושלם
בהתחלה אלוהים ראה שישראל לקבל את החוק
אני אבחר בתולה ראויה ישו נולד וקראת אליה מבורך
והיית סוגד שם מי הראשון שלי נולד הראשון שלי הוא ישו
כאשר האדון מגיע מי שם הוא ישוע לך שעוד סוגדים

So not only are you giving up on your insistence that you won't speak about Judaism anymore, but you are copying and pasting material which shows a huge lack of knowledge about gematria. B=2 not 2000. A=1, not 1000, so the gematria of the word is 913 and the rest of your display is therefore completely wrong.

 

[rosends]

Very interesting question ^ above ^.

Who fits the bill, so to speak, at Isaiah 11:3-5 other than Jesus ?

How could it at all relate to jesus. Loads of people have chastised the wicked and helped the poor. But I don't recall jesus ever smiting anyone with the breath of his lips. And of course, about the same person the next verses are written and that stuff simply hasn't happened.

Who would be the ' anointed one ' ( Messiah/ Mashiach ) other than Jesus at Daniel 9:26

Well, since Jesus was never anointed with the sheme hamishcha, the anointing oil, it couldn't be he to whom the text was referring.
If you want alternate mathematical explanations of the 7 weeks thing, feel free to ask, but they simply can't refer to someone who was not anointed.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

So not only are you giving up on your insistence that you won't speak about Judaism anymore, but you are copying and pasting material which shows a huge lack of knowledge about gematria. B=2 not 2000. A=1, not 1000, so the gematria of the word is 913 and the rest of your display is therefore completely wrong.

In English gematria A = 6
According to the evilest man in the world A=1000
Using the evilest man in the worlds gematria I acquired scripture , nice .

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

So not only are you giving up on your insistence that you won't speak about Judaism anymore, but you are copying and pasting material which shows a huge lack of knowledge about gematria. B=2 not 2000. A=1, not 1000, so the gematria of the word is 913 and the rest of your display is therefore completely wrong.

Didn't want to walk away feeling I needed to warn people ,you are hated just because of who you are and these laws are the proof .
Can't walk away from this , even though I would like to personally

 

[rosends]

In English gematria A = 6
According to the evilest man in the world A=1000
Using the evilest man in the worlds gematria I acquired scripture , nice .

I am replying to this so that you can't go back and change it.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Gematria is pretty straightforward though it has a number of presentations. A=6? In none of them.
And why would you cite the "evilest man in the world"?
You make no sense. And then you make even less sense.