Theosis

[Random]

Anyone ever heard of it? It means becoming like God or attaining to a State of Being in harmony or union with God.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity retains the doctrine to some degree whilst some Roman Catholic theologians lament its disuse. Any opinions? Is Theosis the same as Enlightenment or Gnosis? Does it all ammount to the same transcendent thing (as I believe)?

I reckon I won't get a single reply to this...:sad4:

 

[ayani]

i'm reading about it now via Wiki and other sites. it's certainly interesting.

as Theosis assumes the existence of a supreme Being with whom the finite (us) can experience union or communion, and as not all traditions that use the term "enlightenment" are theistic, comparing the two may not be useful. i'd shy away from it, at least.

i'm reminded of Jesus saying "be thou perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect". could this be an allusion to theosis?

 

[Katzpur]

Anyone ever heard of it? It means becoming like God or attaining to a State of Being in harmony or union with God.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity retains the doctrine to some degree whilst some Roman Catholic theologians lament its disuse. Any opinions? Is Theosis the same as Enlightenment or Gnosis? Does it all ammount to the same transcendent thing (as I believe)?

I reckon I won't get a single reply to this...:sad4:

You reckon wrong. The Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of Eternal Progression, or Deification. It's not identical to Theosis, I'm sure, but it's related. Here's what C.S. Lewis said on the subject (and yes, I am aware that he was not LDS. ). Nevertheless, he couldn't have expressed the LDS perspective on the subject more perfectly if he'd tried.

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

 

[Random]

You reckon wrong. The Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of Eternal Progression, or Deification. It's not identical to Theosis, I'm sure, but it's related. Here's what C.S. Lewis said on the subject (and yes, I am aware that he was not LDS. ). Nevertheless, he couldn't have expressed the LDS perspective on the subject more perfectly if he'd tried.

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Wow, that exactly describes my concept of it too! Appreciate that, Katzpur. :clap

 

[Rolling_Stone]

[Earth] mortals can hardly hope to be perfect in the infinite sense, but it is entirely possible for human beings, starting out as they do on this planet, to attain the supernal and divine goal which the infinite God has set for mortal man; and when they do achieve this destiny, they will, in all that pertains to self-realization and mind attainment, be just as replete in their sphere of divine perfection as God himself is in his sphere of infinity and eternity. Such perfection may not be universal in the material sense, unlimited in intellectual grasp, or final in spiritual experience, but it is final and complete in all finite aspects of divinity of will, perfection of personality motivation, and God-consciousness. (from The URANTIA Book, P. 22)

As the poet said, "We are different than God in degree; not in kind." (FYI, I used to be "Mormon.")

 

[James the Persian]

Anyone ever heard of it? It means becoming like God or attaining to a State of Being in harmony or union with God.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity retains the doctrine to some degree whilst some Roman Catholic theologians lament its disuse. Any opinions? Is Theosis the same as Enlightenment or Gnosis? Does it all ammount to the same transcendent thing (as I believe)?

I reckon I won't get a single reply to this...:sad4:

Orthodoxy does not retain theosis 'to some degree' - it is absolutely central to our soteriology. Whatever gave you the idea that we had somehow allowed it to slip into disuse? The doctrine is that we can become by grace what God is by nature because we progress in perfection and communion with Him. It starts in this life and has no end (perfection is something we can never actually achieve), not even in the next life. It is an eternal progression. In that way, and the need for a God, it is quite different to Enlightenment. In other ways it is fairly similar. It is absolutely nothing like Gnosis, however, as that idea presupposes some knowledge that can save you - such knowledge is entirely absent from theosis.

I would suggest that if you want to understand theosis, you look into the writings of St. Athanasios of Alexandria and St. Gregory Palamas and that you also investigate hesychasm, which is the practice that we use to help us work on ourselves in order to progress in the process of theosis. I don't know a single person in my Church who doesn't practice hesychastic discipline to some degree, which is why I was so shocked by your suggestion that theosis was anything other than vital to Orthodox theology. If you got that from some source that you've read, rather than it being an eroneous personal opinion, then you need better ones (and why not ask about this in the EO forum first? I would have quickly dealt with your misunderstanding).

James

 

[autonomous1one1]

You reckon wrong. The Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of Eternal Progression, or Deification. It's not identical to Theosis, I'm sure, but it's related. Here's what C.S. Lewis said on the subject (and yes, I am aware that he was not LDS. ). Nevertheless, he couldn't have expressed the LDS perspective on the subject more perfectly if he'd tried.

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Greeting Katz. Are you still with us on this thread? I am curious as to how 'Exhaltation' fits with the 'Deification' you describe here?

 

[DeepShadow]

Yeah, how would you relate those, Katz? I'd be inclined to say that deification is the end result of exaltation, but there may be more to it. I'll search around.

 

[astarath]

I do this all the time through prayer. I place myself in a state of oneness with God. When you are with God his glory makes you of his kind

 

[autonomous1one1]

Anyone ever heard of it? It means becoming like God or attaining to a State of Being in harmony or union with God.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity retains the doctrine to some degree whilst some Roman Catholic theologians lament its disuse. Any opinions? Is Theosis the same as Enlightenment or Gnosis? Does it all ammount to the same transcendent thing (as I believe)?

I reckon I won't get a single reply to this...:sad4:

Greetings Random, hope you are still monitoring this thread.

There is a breakthrough phenomenon that occurs within man which could be stated as 'the individual realizes oneness with God.' The following wording found when reading about Hinduism is my favorite: the being realizes identity with the source of all being. This is described sometimes as Enlightenment, or a mystical experience of union with God. In my belief, every religion has a term and goal related to this; I mentioned Enlightenment and there is Samadhi, Nirvana, Awakening, Illumination, and Moksa to mention a few more. And, I think Theosis fits into this line of thought and is very much akin to Enlightenment. Some of us have had an exchange related to this in a Sunstone thread about Nirvana: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47696

I am sure that James has as authentic a definition of Theosis as anyone, but I have run into variations. One web site on Theosis that I found interesting is http://www.frimmin.com/faith/theosis.html.

Best Wishes,
a1

 

[astarath]

It is probably from a Christian perspective closer to revelation then enlightenment

 

[autonomous1one1]

It is probably from a Christian perspective closer to revelation then enlightenment

Greetings Astarath. Of course these are my own opinions, but I put 'original' revelation (as different from 'dependent' revelation) into the same 'ball park' as Enlightenment and Theosis.

 

[James the Persian]

It is probably from a Christian perspective closer to revelation then enlightenment

No, it's not. It's absolutely nothing like revelation. Such would be far more akin to the gnosis which I pointed out, and maintain, that theosis is not at all like. More to the point, though, theosis is not an event or an end point. It's not a state but a process, and a process which cannot end. From the traditional Christian perspective (sadly all but lost in the west, though it is abundantly clear in the early centuries of he Church), theosis is salvation - and neither one ever ends.

James

 

[autonomous1one1]

No, it's not. It's absolutely nothing like revelation. Such would be far more akin to the gnosis which I pointed out, and maintain, that theosis is not at all like. More to the point, though, theosis is not an event or an end point. It's not a state but a process, and a process which cannot end. From the traditional Christian perspective (sadly all but lost in the west, though it is abundantly clear in the early centuries of he Church), theosis is salvation - and neither one ever ends.

James

Greetings. I found the article linked in your signature to be interesting on Theosis, if anyone else is interested.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Anyone ever heard of it? It means becoming like God or attaining to a State of Being in harmony or union with God.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity retains the doctrine to some degree whilst some Roman Catholic theologians lament its disuse. Any opinions? Is Theosis the same as Enlightenment or Gnosis? Does it all ammount to the same transcendent thing (as I believe)?

I reckon I won't get a single reply to this...:sad4:

Ever read any works by Sri Aurobindo? Download the .pdf Essays Divine and Human here. Here is a sample:

Certitudes​

In the deep there is a greater deep, in the heights a greater
height. Sooner shall man arrive at the borders of infinity than at
the fulness of his own being. For that being is infinity, is God
I aspire to infinite force, infinite knowledge, infinite bliss.
Can I attain it? Yes, but the nature of infinity is that it has no
end. Say not therefore that I attain it. I become it. Only so can
man attain God by becoming God.​

But before attaining he can enter into relations with him.
To enter into relations with God is Yoga, the highest rapture &
the noblest utility. There are relations within the compass of the
humanity we have developed. These are called prayer, worship,
adoration, sacrifice, thought, faith, science, philosophy. There
are other relations beyond our developed capacity, but within
the compass of the humanity we have yet to develop. Those are
the relations that are attained by the various practices we usually
call Yoga.​

We may not know him as God, we may know him as Nature,
our Higher Self, Infinity, some ineffable goal. It was so that Buddha
approached Him; so approaches him the rigid Adwaitin. He
is accessible even to the Atheist. To the materialist He disguises
Himself in matter. For the Nihilist he waits ambushed in the​

bosom of Annihilation.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Ever read any works by Sri Aurobindo? Download the .pdf Essays Divine and Human here. Here is a sample:

Thank you RS. Have you concluded that Sri Aurobindo is an Enlightened one that might be added to MysticSang'ha's thread on those who are Enlightened?http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...47461-who-do-you-think-enlightened-world.html

Although he passed in 1950, that is recent enough that it may be allowable in the thread. As you have noted, his writings are readily available.

Regards,
a..1

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Thank you RS. Have you concluded that Sri Aurobindo is an Enlightened one that might be added to MysticSang'ha's thread on those who are Enlightened?http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...47461-who-do-you-think-enlightened-world.html

Although he passed in 1950, that is recent enough that it may be allowable in the thread. As you have noted, his writings are readily available.

Regards,
a..1

A strong possibility, but I'm not in 100% agreement with everything he says. Take the excerpt, for example. I would rephrase it by plagiarizing from The Urantia Book:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I aspire to infinite force, infinite knowledge, infinite bliss. Can I attain it? Yes, in theory, but the nature of infinity is that it has no end. Say not, therefore, that I attain it, but I become it. I[/FONT] can hardly hope to be perfect in the infinite sense, but it is entirely possible to attain the supernal and divine goal which the infinite God has set for me, and when I do achieve this destiny, I will, in all that pertains to self-realization and mind attainment, be just as replete in my sphere of divine perfection as God himself is in his sphere of infinity and eternity. Such perfection may not be universal in the material sense, unlimited in intellectual grasp, or final in spiritual experience, but it is final and complete in all finite aspects of divinity of will, perfection of personality motivation, and God-consciousness.

 

[Joshua Pryce]

Anyone ever heard of it? It means becoming like God or attaining to a State of Being in harmony or union with God.

Eastern Orthodox Christianity retains the doctrine to some degree whilst some Roman Catholic theologians lament its disuse. Any opinions? Is Theosis the same as Enlightenment or Gnosis? Does it all ammount to the same transcendent thing (as I believe)?

I reckon I won't get a single reply to this...:sad4:

I partly agree with this theory. There is growth and spiritual support in humbleness. What i mean is to become like God we must submit to God. But Isnt that what the Holy Spirit does. Makes a person just like Jesus (but a more sinful version) Jesus is supposed to be God and completely God and a man.