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Theists: what *would* work for an outsider test for faith?

idea

Question Everything
Yes. And I'll extend that just a bit further. Intuition and inspiration are in the realm of the heart. I've known things as true through intuition where the rational intellect is not involved. Those who have had the experiences I've had know what I'm writing about. Those who have not will easily think of it as hooey with no basis except belief and sheer guesswork with no logical basis.

But also when someone is working on paying heed to that intuitive voice as I am, mistakes happen. So questions like the outsider test can be helpful in distinguishing the voice of the heart from the voice of the ego at a certain stage.

Perhaps there are semantics over what the meaning of "true" is? I understanding knowing something as "pleasing to your own heart" through elevation. I have had powerful experiences of elevation, and now know that feeling/sensation does not confirm truth as most people define truth, and does not protect etc. I suppose until you are confronted with reality in direct disagreement to what has corresponded to elevation before, it can be confusing what herd-bonding instincts are. - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior

true
/tro͞o/
adjective
1.
in accordance with fact or reality:
"a true story"
Similar
accurate, correct, verifiable,
Opposite
untrue, false, fallacious

2.
accurate or exact:
"it was a true depiction"
Similar
accurate
Opposite
inaccurate


Is there another definition of "true" that you are using in the context of feelings? In context with the thread "what *would* work for an outsider test for faith?" - what do you say to outsiders who experience elevation, or "who have had the experiences I've had" seemingly confirming their own different faith is "true" in the same manner that you claim your own faith is "true"? Do you believe their experience is somehow different from your own?
 
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Ponder This

Well-Known Member
John Loftus coined a term for something that existed in different forms long before him: the outsider test for faith.

It's the idea that we should approach faith claims that are very familiar to us - or that we're heavily invested in - with the sort of mindset that a disinterested outsider would have, or that we use when considering religions we don't believe in.

A few quotes from Loftus (source) that expand on the idea:



I often see pushback when theists are encouraged to apply the outsider test for faith to their own belief.

In fairness, this often involves comparing their beliefs to parody religions (e.g. the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn) or religions now generally dismissed as unreasonable (e.g. the ancient Greek or Norse pantheons of gods), so I get the sense that the theists often assume that their beliefs are being made fun of, and their offense gets in the way of having a real discussion.

... so theists: what would work? How should non-theists approach this issue that would actually get you to apply the outsider test for faith to your own beliefs?

How would you apply the outsider test for faith to your beliefs?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...How should non-theists approach this issue that would actually get you to apply the outsider test for faith to your own beliefs?

Jesus said:

...My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

Is that what you were asking?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Jesus said:

...My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

Is that what you were asking?
No, it isn't.

Here's what I'm asking:

Say you hadn't accepted any religion. You're presented with a religion to consider - not Christianity, not particularly aligned with the teachings of Jesus. Presumably, that religion would need to meet some standard before you would accept it.

- what is that standard?
- does your current belief system meet that standard?
- what would be a fair example to get you to think about this issue (i.e. if not a parody religion, then what should be used)?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
... Presumably, that religion would need to meet some standard before you would accept it.

- what is that standard?
- does your current belief system meet that standard?
...

I personally don't really like the idea of religion. For me, Bible is history book, and lesson about good and right. I believe it, because i think it is reasonble, good and truthful. So, to me the standard is those three, reason/intelligent, good/righteous and truth.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I like the idea expressed in your description. However, for me that meaning has always been encompassed in what I mean by "values." Someone can hold the core value that it is best to believe things that are true. Someone else can hold the core value that it is best to believe things that are comfortable. It sounds like you are describing this nature of our beings, of our inscrutable natures, that makes us choose to value something over another thing. It's curious to apply "faith" to that inexplicable determinant, but that's how I interpreted your explanation and it has left me with interesting thoughts to explore.
Thanks for your response. To be clear, I'm quoting someone else in how he defines the differences between the nature of faith and the nature of beliefs, and the relationships between them. I just agree with him based upon my own experience and observations, plus I very much respect his entire meta-perspective philosophy of Integral Metatheory.

Regarding comparing faith with values, I can see some comparison between them as they are really more philosophical in nature. That makes "beliefs" secondary, and not primary. One can say they "believe" that love is better than hate, but that is really more a gut sense, than it is intellectual in nature. But faith in the context of what Wilber is touching on has to do with more than just values. It has to do with one's perspective of Ultimate Reality, or religious Faith, with a capital F.

That's distinctly different that lowercase faith, as in having faith one's car is going to start. That doesn't have anything to do with one's view of Ultimate Reality. Values will be part of that, of course, but it's more than just values, and has to do with how one sees the Big Picture, or that which holds everything together. It's existential in nature, not relative to questions of various situations, which is where values comes into play. I like he describes it as an intuition. Beliefs on the other hand are cognitive in nature.

Does it take "faith" to believe that the things we value are in fact valuable and worth pursuing? Perhaps. And in that way, perhaps that is precisely the faith that motivates and internally justifies religious people in their comfortable beliefs, as well as that essence of motivation that causes someone to abandon their religious indoctrination because they most value the open-eyed pursuit of knowledge wherever it leads.

Incidentally, I think this is what morality is based on. We each value things for subjective, maybe inexplicable reasons. Where we can all mostly agree, like valuing human well-being, we can advance those values based on objective facts about reality that dictate which actions will advance or detract from achieving that value. Where we disagree, we can do nothing but convince, coerce, or conflict.
I would add however, like beliefs, our values can change. I used to hold to the standard party line values of my peers in a conservative Christian context, but ultimately it was what my heart told me, or what faith intuited to be true, listening to my heart instead of my head, or my fears, that led my values to shift. So I don't equate a religious faith, that which intuits the nature of the Divine on an interior level, to be the same as what we adopt as value systems.

Our beliefs and values are more like the caboose to the engine of faith. And if you don't have faith, you make a god out of your beliefs or values, and project your doubts about them upon others as a result. They are static box cars, unable to move without faith. You identify yourself as those, and come hell or high water, you must defend them as true, as that is where you have placed your whole sense of self and truth in. All that is a lack of faith. And that applies to any beliefs and values, be they religious or secular in nature.
 
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