Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

[Bthoth]

I would expect it to not have consciousness.

Then the world would still be a garden of eden.

Before consciousness evolved, there were no gods of man made story telling.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I have a genuine question for theists and it is not meant to be a trick in any way. There are many things that I would expect to see in a universe containing a benevolent, omnipotent, personal god that I don't see in this universe, which leads me to conclude that such a god is unlikely to exist. I'm curious as to what theists would expect to see in a godless universe, and how a godless universe would differ from one in which a god existed. What would you expect this universe to look like if no gods existed, and how would that be different from the current universe?

i am in on this very late...so i go back to the original question...

Are not the laws of conservation of energy and matter such that if there is no transcendant cause, there can be no universe? A cause cannot create itself and given the big bang background microwave radiation discouvery, its impossible i think to claim the universe did not have a point of origin.

 

[Valjean]

i am in on this very late...so i go back to the original question...

Are not the laws of conservation of energy and matter such that if there is no transcendant cause, there can be no universe? A cause cannot create itself and given the big bang background microwave radiation discouvery, its impossible i think to claim the universe did not have a point of origin.

The "cause" of the universe is yet unknown. The very notion of causation appears to be an artifact of the configuration of laws and constants peculiar to this, existing universe.
In the quantum reality underlying the physics of this universe, cause and effect are not clearly evidenced, as they are in our experiential world.

 

[Polymath257]

i am in on this very late...so i go back to the original question...

Are not the laws of conservation of energy and matter such that if there is no transcendant cause, there can be no universe?

O in a word, no

The conservation laws tell that the total quantity of something (energy, momentum, angular momentum) are the same at any two times in any reference frame.

The problem for your view is that time is part of the universe.

Let me state that again: time is part of the universe. Whenever there was time, there was also energy, momentum, etc. But that does not, in fact, cannot, imply anything outside of the universe. The conservation laws only apply within the universe of time.


A cause cannot create itself and given the big bang background microwave radiation discouvery, it’s impossible i think to claim the universe did not have a point of origin.

There seems to be a point from which there is no before. But that, again, does not violate the conservation laws, which always talk about comparing something Y two different times.

Why would you think natural laws would apply outside of the universe anyway?

 

[Polymath257]

The "cause" of the universe is yet unknown. The very notion of causation appears to be an artifact of the configuration of laws and constants peculiar to this, existing universe.
In the quantum reality underlying the physics of this universe, cause and effect are not clearly evidenced, as they are in our experiential world.

Exactly. Causality, such as it exists, is a product of the material laws. It applies within the universe, not outside of it (whatever that could mean). So the very idea of a cause for the universe is problematic.

This is not to mention that causality is not universal. At the quantum level most events are not caused. Instead they are probabilistic.

 

[wellwisher]

Exactly. Causality, such as it exists, is a product of the material laws. It applies within the universe, not outside of it (whatever that could mean). So the very idea of a cause for the universe is problematic.

This is not to mention that causality is not universal. At the quantum level most events are not caused. Instead they are probabilistic.

The probabilistic universe assumption is based on the assumptions of space-time or where space and time are connected. The analogy is a three legged race, where two people are tethered leg left to right leg, so they need to work as a team. This tether places limits of each person, since if the two do not coordinate, they will slow down or even fall. The three legged race of space-time places limits as to what is optimized; win the race, that we call the laws of physics.

If we were to take off the tether of the three legged race of space-time, so both space and time could act independently, each variable now has more options and both can outrun their three legged race team; breaks the rules or limits of space-time. Currently, we try to approximate with this statistics relative to space-time, but that is only a first approximation and is not fully rational. It places independent space and independent time in a black box, where it cannot be unraveled, but remains nebulous; fuzzy dice.

There is a logic to independent space and independent time; open the black box.

Say you could move in space independent of time, in the limit you would become omnipresent, since it would take zero time to go anywhere and everywhere in the universe. This is a classic attribute of God. The ancients seemed to understand independent space and time, which allows things, not allowed by the physics rules of the three legged race.

An interesting related and educational effect to help visualize, is motion blur. This tells us something about how independent time and independent space, add their potentials. Below is a still picture, where time has stopped, yet we can still sense motion; limited omnipresent affect. The brain can interpret motion. The car appears to be covering more space than its size, all in zero time.

Motion blur is an effect, where the shutter speed and the action speed are different, in this case the action speed is faster than the shutter speed can capture , so we can get the blur. The difference in speed or time I will call delta t. Since time is held constant in the photo, the delta t or time potential becomes converted to distance potential; motion blur or uncertainty in position. The brain can do the math.

In the case of quantum entanglement, particles coordinate in time apart from separation in space. In this case, delta d=0 or the limits of space are removed, while time potential remains; synchronized actions.

There is a logic to this based on the two variables, I like to call time and distance potential. This is the extra beyond space-time.

The laws of physics are the same in all references. This is about time (potential)=infinity and distance (potential)=0.

 

[Polymath257]

The probabilistic universe assumption is based on the assumptions of space-time or where space and time are connected. The analogy is a three legged race, where two people are tethered leg left to right leg, so they need to work as a team. This tether places limits of each person, since if the two do not coordinate, they will slow down or even fall. The three legged race of space-time places limits as to what is optimized; win the race, that we call the laws of physics.

If we were to take off the tether of the three legged race of space-time, so both space and time could act independently, each variable now has more options and both can outrun their three legged race team; breaks the rules or limits of space-time. Currently, we try to approximate with this statistics relative to space-time, but that is only a first approximation and is not fully rational. It places independent space and independent time in a black box, where it cannot be unraveled, but remains nebulous; fuzzy dice.

It seems you don't understand the concept of spacetime.

 

[wellwisher]

It seems you don't understand the concept of spacetime.

I understand space-time in the context of connected or tethered space-time, also being interfaced, where space and time are not connected. This extra is currently modeled with statistical mechanics. Reality is not as clear cut as the ideal three legged race of space-time, which is why statistical mechanics was added. The tether of the three legged race of space-time is not put on tight, as the rules imply.

For example, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that we cannot know both the position and momentum/speed of a particle, such as a photon or electron, with perfect accuracy; the more we nail down the particle's position, the less we know about its speed and vice versa.

The simplest explanation is; space and time are not perfectly tethered, in the three legged race of space-time, but rather space and time each have more independence than is currently assumed. With this assumption, we can still perfectly measure position, but with time uncertainty, the momentum cannot be measured perfectly. On the other hand, even if we measure momentum with precision, distance potential uncertainty; not tightly tethered in space, uncertainty in position will appear. Heisenberg showed both variables were loose. This is the simplest explanation. It also can also be applied to quantum anomalies; ratios of the added/subtracted time and/or distance potential to space-time.

Let me expand the model of independent space and independent time, to a deeper understanding of the forces of nature. This is easiest to see starting with another picture of motion blur; see below. Again the shutter speed of the camera; how fast the film is exposed, is slower than the action. Since the still photo stops time=0, the delta speed or difference in speed become expressed as uncertainty in distance. We will sense motion, even with time stopped. Like the electron in an orbital, it appears everywhere via a probability function. The image is limited due to the dance step not trying to fill in like an electron. But he is most likely in the center.

When you think about the forces of nature, they all emanate from a solid particle core, like a ghost connected to the core; visual analogy. The above still photo does not exactly express this, since the photo has stopped time. The forces of nature, like a movie, will need time to act. This movie will over expose the film; gets too bright and will obscure with uncertainty, since the shutter is open too long. It will create a more dynamic motion blur effect; uncertainty in distance or hard to measure momentum.

In videos, the shutter speed is controlled by a spinning 1/2 disk; 180 degrees. As the film advances, the disk spins. The open or empty, 180 degree of the shutter, exposes the film. Then as it continued to spin the solid 180 of the spinning disk, covers the film, as the film steps to the next frame. In many ways, this action mimics waves and the quantum state, where there are distinct states with empty gaps in the middle for force exposure.

To get the motion blur needed to make force appear to emanate from an object, such as a charge, the action speed needs to be faster than the shutter speed. This comes from the reference at the speed of light. Force emanates at the speed of light; action. While the matter that contains the force is quantified, and restricts to below the speed of light; camera at the quantum material shutter speed of each force,

Below are some movie stills based on long shutter and different exposures; forces of nature. Gravity has more than one face; reference.

Shutter speed is d/t ,or various ratios of distance and time potential.

 

[wellwisher]

I developed a model, about 20 years ago; 2005, that I called the MDT theory, with MDT, short for mass, distance and time potential; the three independent extras beyond just connected space-time and mass. I have focused on time and distance potential; above. However, there is also mass potential needed to complete the set. The model was originally built on Special Relativity, so mass potential would be relativistic mass connected to Special Relativity and our moving and spinning gravity universe; astral and quantum.

Our space-time universe is very dependent on mass, to provide a capacitance for all the diversity of space-time references. Energy can add to space-time contraction; black hole, but mass allows objects, like the earth to have a stable space-time reference, while also allowing neutron stars to do their own thing.

Mass will also allow large stars to have different zones of radial space-time references; stellar core and surface. Mass is needed for the diversity within space-time; GR and SR, and all the many static and moving references. If we took away mass, we could still have space-time, but it would become much less diverse, since energy likes to expand away if gravity is limited; universe would be limited to extreme space-time states; minimal or maximum. Mass adds all the layers of middle diversity, which express all types of intermediate effects, like chemistry and the layers of the earth.

Mass does has a limitation, in that it cannot travel at the speed of light. The inertial universe of space-time is built on a mass foundation, that has a speed limit just short of the speed of light. To get all the other effects, that appear to defy the speed of light, with in the mass foundations of space-time, we need independent space and time and mass potential, which is dependent on mass. This adds even more options.

My original theory was based on the claim by Einstein, that the laws of physics were the same in all references. I thought about this in light of Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity. My logic was, if we were to gain velocity and enter a new and more contracted space-time reference, everything would need to adjust to keep the laws of physics the same. There are a lot of variables. Yet his theory of Special Relativity did this, in theory, with only three fundamental and even old fashion variables; relativistic mass, distance and time. Theoretically, it should be possible to compress the laws of physics into just these three relativistic variables, since they alone could adjust all the rest; MDT Theory. This evolved to mass, distance and time potential that, together or apart could tweak space-time.

The model predicted six (6) universe creation scenarios, many of which have been investigated; BB, Wave theory, etc. These six stemmed from the 6 possible combinations of the three variables; MDT, MTD, TDM,TMD, DMT, and DTM. The MDT order or sequence for the title of the theory, was chosen since it expressed the BB or Standard Model.

The MDT theory has mass potential coming first, to add the first sustainable space-time reference; primordial atom. This is very close to the speed of light reference; from where time and distance are independent and ready to act. Next, distance potential was added, where the mass appears to expand faster than the speed of light; inflation. There is astral quantum motion blur. Then time potential is added; integrated in time and in the sands of time potential.

The early universe follows an evolving path driven by the second law; increasing complexity, as it move back to where it came. It starts at minimal entropy and complexity. It has been gaining entropy and complexity, moving back toward infinite complexity and infinite entropy, or the other place, where there is only independent space and independent time. Mass allows it to linger in time. The quick path of reversal is blocked for mass, so the universe was has to go another way; mass burn to energy and energy to red shift. Mass and Gravity helps mass burn, while the expansion of universal space-time helps red shift; bleeds universal energy for entropy increase.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

People believe what they want to believe, that's why. Atheists think, if God is a loving God then how come I didn't get the toy I wanted one Christmas? You didn't get the toy you wanted one Christmas because your parents were bad people, not because God did not exist.

*Blinks*

You seriously believe this?

 

[Esteban X]

Atheists say God does not exist, not, maybe God exists or doesn't exist. They are absolutely sure God does not exist but they have not explored even .1% of the universe so how would they know?

I have said in other threads that the atheist position is that we do not believe god(s) exist not we make the claim that god(s) do not exist. The burden of proof thus falls to the theist to show god in the vast unknown universe.

 

[wellwisher]

A Godless universe could not be planned in advanced, since there is no consciousness to do this and there is no sense of order among the components, only random possibilities. With a God, we assume that there is an architect, who broods, designs and even spec the design; cost and resources, before it is built. His design may need new yet to be developed resources, that are also developed in the lab before the build.

A Godless universe build, would be more like building off the cuff, while having no building, planning or even design skills; cavemen trying to build the Taj Mahal by throwing into pile of rubble. They would use more like a blank stare black box trial and error approach, at each step of the build, hoping one day the pile of rubble is the Taj Mahal. The universe is not quite that old for all the needed casino jack pots for this to make sense. The house of rubble would win in the end of the day; age of the universe.

God, as the architect of the universe, would plan more in his head, without getting dirty, until the design is done. Since he is God, time is not a problem, since he is eternal. This would even allow him to even employ the caveman method; random simulation iteration, but on paper or in his head until a working design appears. There is plenty of time in eternity even for random. Once a good solution appears, it is time to break ground; Boom!

A godless physical universe has a time constraint based on the age the universe, with all the random trial and error within each step of material reality each taking time; how many rolls of the dice to do x, then y and then z. There is not enough time with just dice and cards. The work around would be to do the dice and cards simulation, where time is not a limiting step; timeless eternity or in the lab using reference shifting computing, to get faster time computing reference frames, so billion year dice and card simulation can appear in days in our reference. This is beyond current physics but is implied by the concept of God.

We live in a space-time universe, where space and time are tethered like a three legged race, placing limits on space and time; the speed of light. But if time and space were not connected, but each could act as separate and independent variables, the time constraint will be gone. This opens more design options. If one could move in space, independent of time, we could be everywhere in the universe in zero time. This is useful for the architect drawing the big picture on paper. One stroke of the pencil, and we have a possible full universe layout. We can then use time, with distance held constant. This can add a holographic time feature; independent of space, such as the laws of physics will now apply all over the blue print. This is a good simplifying assumption to make the job easier. Next, we criss-cross independent time and space; act together, so they appear to junction, but not yet tethered; millions of simulations to get the bugs out; time frame computing.

Then we glue a permanent junction; tether, to form permanent space-time; mass of the primordial atom. This is placed within the blue print of independent space and time. This allow a potential to appear; 2nd law between space-time; simplicity, and independent space and time; infinite complexity. Boom! This is followed by movement of space-time to fill in the blue print via the laws of Physics, within the matrix of independent space and time.

This model will also fill in the range of intermediate physics, that is between the two extremes, that includes quantum, life and consciousness. In this modem, life and then human will one day be able to plan in their heads before building, thereby putting random in a box; quality control. This will establish the modern extrapolation that implies that the original design was also more than just random; heading toward this final goal. Human will take it the next limit; their own eternal consciousness, where time and space are not tethered, and there are no limits other than what the imagination can build; labs of eternal paradise designs.

 

[Valjean]

A Godless universe could not be planned in advanced, since there is no consciousness to do this and there is no sense of order among the components, only random possibilities.

Only the creationist claims the universe was planned. Physics and chemistry are not random. They're strictly governed by natural, unconscious laws and constants. You've chosen to attribute the apparent order you see in your world to superhuman intention. Why?

With a God, we assume that there is an architect, who broods, designs and even spec the design; cost and resources, before it is built. His design may need new yet to be developed resources, that are also developed in the lab before the build.

Yet there's neither need nor objective evidence of such an architect.

A Godless universe build, would be more like building off the cuff, while having no building, planning or even design skills; cavemen trying to build the Taj Mahal by throwing into pile of rubble. They would use more like a blank stare black box trial and error approach, at each step of the build, hoping one day the pile of rubble is the Taj Mahal. The universe is not quite that old for all the needed casino jack pots for this to make sense. The house of rubble would win in the end of the day; age of the universe.

Again, this presupposes a random, chaotic, unordered universe..

God, as the architect of the universe, would plan more in his head, without getting dirty, until the design is done. Since he is God, time is not a problem, since he is eternal. This would even allow him to even employ the caveman method; random simulation iteration, but on paper or in his head until a working design appears. There is plenty of time in eternity even for random. Once a good solution appears, it is time to break ground; Boom!

You're simply regurgitating the unevidenced religious mythology I assume you were raised with and are emotionally invested in.

A godless physical universe has a time constraint based on the age the universe, with all the random trial and error within each step of material reality each taking time; how many rolls of the dice to do x, then y and then z. There is not enough time with just dice and cards.

Trial and error? The only universe we're aware of has been unfolding smoothly for billions of years. Where are you getting these repeated dice rolls?

The work around would be to do the dice and cards simulation, where time is not a limiting step; timeless eternity or in the lab using reference shifting computing, to get faster time computing reference frames, so billion year dice and card simulation can appear in days in our reference. This is beyond current physics but is implied by the concept of God.

Huh? Where do you come up with these flights of fancy?

We live in a space-time universe, where space and time are tethered like a three legged race, placing limits on space and time; the speed of light. But if time and space were not connected, but each could act as separate and independent variables, the time constraint will be gone. This opens more design options. If one could move in space, independent of time, we could be everywhere in the universe in zero time. This is useful for the architect drawing the big picture on paper. One stroke of the pencil, and we have a possible full universe layout. We can then use time, with distance held constant. This can add a holographic time feature; independent of space, such as the laws of physics will now apply all over the blue print. This is a good simplifying assumption to make the job easier. Next, we criss-cross independent time and space; act together, so they appear to junction, but not yet tethered; millions of simulations to get the bugs out; time frame computing.

But this is not the universe we inhabit. Time and space are equivalent; sides of the same coin.

Then we glue a permanent junction; tether, to form permanent space-time; mass of the primordial atom. This is placed within the blue print of independent space and time. This allow a potential to appear; 2nd law between space-time; simplicity, and independent space and time; infinite complexity. Boom! This is followed by movement of space-time to fill in the blue print via the laws of Physics, within the matrix of independent space and time.

This model will also fill in the range of intermediate physics, that is between the two extremes, that includes quantum, life and consciousness. In this modem, life and then human will one day be able to plan in their heads before building, thereby putting random in a box; quality control. This will establish the modern extrapolation that implies that the original design was also more than just random; heading toward this final goal. Human will take it the next limit; their own eternal consciousness, where time and space are not tethered, and there are no limits other than what the imagination can build; labs of eternal paradise designs.

You've woven an elaborate, hypothetical fantasy world, somehow including a magical architect designing it.
You seem to be justifying your God hypothesis by the hypothetical reality you've come up with to justify your God hypothesis.

 

[Polymath257]

I understand space-time in the context of connected or tethered space-time, also being interfaced, where space and time are not connected.

Huh?

Space and time are 'connected' in the same way that front-back is 'connected' to 'left-right'.

This extra is currently modeled with statistical mechanics. Reality is not as clear cut as the ideal three legged race of space-time, which is why statistical mechanics was added. The tether of the three legged race of space-time is not put on tight, as the rules imply.

I have no idea where you get the analogy of a three legged race, but it doesn't fit anything I know about spacetime.

And no, statistical mechanics does not model 'extra'. I have no idea where you get this either.

For example, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that we cannot know both the position and momentum/speed of a particle, such as a photon or electron, with perfect accuracy; the more we nail down the particle's position, the less we know about its speed and vice versa.

Basically correct.

The simplest explanation is; space and time are not perfectly tethered, in the three legged race of space-time, but rather space and time each have more independence than is currently assumed.

Huh? What does it even mean for space and time to be 'tethered'? What does it even mean to say they are 'independent'?

Once again, it seems you have *zero* understanding of the concept of spacetime *as a geometry*.

With this assumption, we can still perfectly measure position, but with time uncertainty, the momentum cannot be measured perfectly. On the other hand, even if we measure momentum with precision, distance potential uncertainty; not tightly tethered in space, uncertainty in position will appear. Heisenberg showed both variables were loose. This is the simplest explanation. It also can also be applied to quantum anomalies; ratios of the added/subtracted time and/or distance potential to space-time.

Once again, what does it even mean for space and time to be 'tethered' or not?

Let me expand the model of independent space and independent time, to a deeper understanding of the forces of nature. This is easiest to see starting with another picture of motion blur; see below. Again the shutter speed of the camera; how fast the film is exposed, is slower than the action. Since the still photo stops time=0, the delta speed or difference in speed become expressed as uncertainty in distance.

It is precisely because time is not stopped that we get blurring. The shutter lets light through for longer than the action of the film. So we see images from several different times.

This, by the way, has little to do with the uncertainty principle in physics.

We will sense motion, even with time stopped.

but time was NOT stopped! That is the whole point.

Like the electron in an orbital, it appears everywhere via a probability function. The image is limited due to the dance step not trying to fill in like an electron. But he is most likely in the center.

And no, that is not the effect that makes an electron 'blurred out'.

When you think about the forces of nature, they all emanate from a solid particle core, like a ghost connected to the core; visual analogy.

Huh? No, they do not.

The above still photo does not exactly express this, since the photo has stopped time.

No, it does not.

The forces of nature, like a movie, will need time to act. This movie will over expose the film; gets too bright and will obscure with uncertainty, since the shutter is open too long. It will create a more dynamic motion blur effect; uncertainty in distance or hard to measure momentum.

In videos, the shutter speed is controlled by a spinning 1/2 disk; 180 degrees. As the film advances, the disk spins. The open or empty, 180 degree of the shutter, exposes the film. Then as it continued to spin the solid 180 of the spinning disk, covers the film, as the film steps to the next frame. In many ways, this action mimics waves and the quantum state, where there are distinct states with empty gaps in the middle for force exposure.

To get the motion blur needed to make force appear to emanate from an object, such as a charge, the action speed needs to be faster than the shutter speed. This comes from the reference at the speed of light. Force emanates at the speed of light; action. While the matter that contains the force is quantified, and restricts to below the speed of light; camera at the quantum material shutter speed of each force,

Below are some movie stills based on long shutter and different exposures; forces of nature. Gravity has more than one face; reference.

Shutter speed is d/t ,or various ratios of distance and time potential.

You are confusing the effects of taking photos with longer exposure than the film action and some sort of independence of space and time.

Like I said, you seriously misunderstand what the physics is saying in ALL of these cases.