Theists, if a charlatan existed...

[Trailblazer]

How would that give you any kind of hint to wheter or not he's delusional?
At best it would tell you that he was acting in accordance with the delusion, if it's a delusion.

What you discovered would determine if a delusional man could do all of that or not, and whether a delusional man would do all of that.

This is where your analytical and logical abilities must come into play. It also helps to know something about psychology.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why couldn't a delusional man do all of that?

I do not think a delusional man could do what Baha’u’llah did, as noted above, but you would have to look at what He did in order to know that. You would also have to know something about psychology.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

No evidence for the historical Jesus? That's an astonishing claim. And that's an amazing amount of evidence that you would have had to kick to the curb, including all of the evidences in these works:

The New Testament;

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

“The Historical Jesus of the Gospels,” by Dr. Craig Keener

"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;

As for hearsay, most of history is hearsay, so make sure you rip out major portions from your history books and burn them.

I've read these accounts of Jesus and found them incredibly compelling, as have hundreds of millions of others.

Did I say I believed Jesus didn't exist? Nope. He very well may have. Again - what bearing does that fact/idea/history have on my life? That's the real question here. Even if a figure named Jesus existed, it doesn't mean he has any real ties to "God" - and this is what there is no evidence for except words. And any and all claims of "God" are what I find completely lacking in compelling evidence. I don't need to read those books you put forward because I don't care. Whether Jesus existed or didn't means very close to nothing to me.

 

[Spartan]

Did I say I believed Jesus didn't exist? Nope. He very well may have. Again - what bearing does that fact/idea/history have on my life? That's the real question here. Even if a figure named Jesus existed, it doesn't mean he has any real ties to "God" - and this is what there is no evidence for except words. And any and all claims of "God" are what I find completely lacking in compelling evidence. I don't need to read those books you put forward because I don't care. Whether Jesus existed or didn't means very close to nothing to me.

You sure spend a great deal of time trying to refute things you don't believe in. Seems like you should be doing something more constructive with your life.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You sure spend a great deal of time trying to refute things you don't believe in. Seems like you should be doing something more constructive with your life.

Oh believe me... I am 100% good with the way I spend my time. No worries there, but thank you for your concern.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Misrepresentation yet again... and this time you're misrepresenting YOURSELF. Or, at least, how you think I view you.

You see, unlike you, I understand that your religion is probably one of the ONLY areas of your life where you rely on such flimsy evidence and almost nothing more than the hearsay of others to come to such grandiose conclusions. So I don't believe you to be "deluded" on some grand scale, or "insane." You simply grant "God" and all your religious trappings WAY more leeway when it comes to skeptical analysis and scrutiny. Otherwise, if you didn't, then you should also heartily believe just about anyone's alien abduction stories... and while we're at it, you should also simultaneously believe everything the Muslims believe, and everything Hindus believe... because they have just about the same exact caliber of evidence and ability to demonstrate their claims as your religion does. But instead you have chosen this ONE area within which to let all skepticism and incredulity fly out the window.

99% of people aren't atheists, YOU think we ALL rely on "flimsy evidence and hearsay". Nonsense.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

99% of people aren't atheists, YOU think we ALL rely on "flimsy evidence and hearsay". Nonsense.

Yes, I do. I don't care how many people there are... just look at the number and variety of beliefs that there are. Your "we can't all be wrong" is a non-argument wrapped in a supposition that everyone is somehow "thinking the same things" - when that is demonstrably not the case.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I do not think a delusional man could do what Baha’u’llah did, as noted above, but you would have to look at what He did in order to know that. You would also have to know something about psychology.

Yes, you already said what you think. What I want to know is WHY you think it wouldn't be possible for a delusional individual do what Baha'u'llah did. What SPECIFICALLY would a person who was completely convinced in their heart that they were a divine messenger not be able to do? And what exactly about psychology are you assuming I need to know?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, you already said what you think. What I want to know is WHY you think it wouldn't be possible for a delusional individual do what Baha'u'llah did. What SPECIFICALLY would a person who was completely convinced in their heart that they were a divine messenger not be able to do?

So I guess you are asking why wouldn’t a delusional individual be able to do what Baha’u’lah did? Why wouldn’t it be possible?

Below are just a couple of examples, from the history of the Cause of Baha’u’llah.

I do not think a delusional individual would be able to completely rehabilitate the Babi community after it had fallen into disarray and despair, after the martyrdom of the Bab. Baha’u’llah led them and unified them and renewed their faith.

I do not think a delusional individual would be able to write on the diverse subjects that Baha’u’llah wrote in the manner that He wrote it. Here is a description of from the history:

“A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, p. 138

“As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity.” God Passes By, p. 138

And what exactly about psychology are you assuming I need to know?

Another question is: Would a delusional individual do what Baha’u’llah did? If we look at the types of delusional disorders we can see that Baha’u’llah does not fit into any of these categories.

Types of delusional disorder

There are several subtypes of delusional disorder:

• Erotomanic: People believe that another person is in love with them. They often try to contact the object of the delusion through telephone calls, letters, or digital messages. Some attempt surveillance, and stalking is common. Behavior related to the delusion may be against the law.
• Grandiose: People are convinced that they have some great talent or have made some important discovery.
• Jealous: People are convinced that a spouse or lover is unfaithful. This belief is based on incorrect inferences supported by dubious evidence. Under such circumstances, physical assault may be a significant danger.
• Persecutory: People believe that they are being plotted against, spied on, maligned, or harassed. People may repeatedly file lawsuits or reports to the police or other government agencies. Rarely, people resort to violence in retaliation for imagined persecution.
• Somatic: People are preoccupied with a bodily function or attribute, such as an imagined physical deformity or odor. The delusion can also take the form of an imagined medical disorder, such as having parasites.

Delusional Disorder - Mental Health Disorders - Merck Manuals Consumer Version

Some people have the misconception that Baha’u’llah was grandiose because of his bold claims to speak for God but He was anything but grandiose. He never promoted Himself but repeatedly wrote that He did what He did only for God.

“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.” Gleanings, p. 127

“Say: God is My witness! I have wished nothing whatever for Myself. What I have wished is the victory of God and the triumph of His Cause. He is Himself a sufficient witness between you and Me. Were ye to cleanse your eyes, ye would readily perceive how My deeds testify to the truth of My words, how My words are a guide to My deeds.” Gleanings, pp. 256-257

And of course these were not just empty words because he sacrificed His Life for God, enduring imprisonment, persecution, exile and banishment for 40 years. No delusional man would do that.

“Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes, I do. I don't care how many people there are... just look at the number and variety of beliefs that there are. Your "we can't all be wrong" is a non-argument wrapped in a supposition that everyone is somehow "thinking the same things" - when that is demonstrably not the case.

So, 99% of humans over all history are WRONG in varied ways. If only the 1% could truly lead we, the 99%!

 

[LuisDantas]

So, 99% of humans over all history are WRONG in varied ways. If only the 1% could truly lead we, the 99%!

Reason, neglected as it often is, turns out to be a marvelous tool for making decisions.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

So, 99% of humans over all history are WRONG in varied ways.

Absolutely correct! I honestly don't know how anyone could claim otherwise. Just think about some of the things we used to think, collectively. Bloodletting to rid ourselves of disease (search up "The Four Humors"), astrology as a portent or method to access divine knowledge, alchemical prescriptions of understanding that held that all the substances in the world/universe were composed of earth, wind, water, fire in varying amounts, the concept of "geocentricity" (that is, Earth as the center of the universe), or how about one of the biggest "gems" of all - "Spontaneous Generation":

Before microscopes and theories of cells and germs, man had other ideas about the creation of living things. He bizarrely believed that life arose from inanimate matter (for example, maggots come spontaneously from rotting meat). Proponents of this view (virtually everyone) used the Bible as a source of evidence, due to the fact that God made man from dust.

Yeah... humans are just a fountain of "truth," aren't they?

If only the 1% could truly lead we, the 99%!

Not what it's about. I don't want to "lead" anyone. What I want is everyone else to stop trying to lead ANYONE else solely relying on garbage justification they got from some "holy" book. That's what I want.

 

[QuestioningMind]

So I guess you are asking why wouldn’t a delusional individual be able to do what Baha’u’lah did? Why wouldn’t it be possible?

Below are just a couple of examples, from the history of the Cause of Baha’u’llah.

I do not think a delusional individual would be able to completely rehabilitate the Babi community after it had fallen into disarray and despair, after the martyrdom of the Bab. Baha’u’llah led them and unified them and renewed their faith.

I do not think a delusional individual would be able to write on the diverse subjects that Baha’u’llah wrote in the manner that He wrote it. Here is a description of from the history:

“A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, p. 138

“As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity.” God Passes By, p. 138

Another question is: Would a delusional individual do what Baha’u’llah did? If we look at the types of delusional disorders we can see that Baha’u’llah does not fit into any of these categories.

Types of delusional disorder

There are several subtypes of delusional disorder:

• Erotomanic: People believe that another person is in love with them. They often try to contact the object of the delusion through telephone calls, letters, or digital messages. Some attempt surveillance, and stalking is common. Behavior related to the delusion may be against the law.
• Grandiose: People are convinced that they have some great talent or have made some important discovery.
• Jealous: People are convinced that a spouse or lover is unfaithful. This belief is based on incorrect inferences supported by dubious evidence. Under such circumstances, physical assault may be a significant danger.
• Persecutory: People believe that they are being plotted against, spied on, maligned, or harassed. People may repeatedly file lawsuits or reports to the police or other government agencies. Rarely, people resort to violence in retaliation for imagined persecution.
• Somatic: People are preoccupied with a bodily function or attribute, such as an imagined physical deformity or odor. The delusion can also take the form of an imagined medical disorder, such as having parasites.

Delusional Disorder - Mental Health Disorders - Merck Manuals Consumer Version

Some people have the misconception that Baha’u’llah was grandiose because of his bold claims to speak for God but He was anything but grandiose. He never promoted Himself but repeatedly wrote that He did what He did only for God.

“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.” Gleanings, p. 127

“Say: God is My witness! I have wished nothing whatever for Myself. What I have wished is the victory of God and the triumph of His Cause. He is Himself a sufficient witness between you and Me. Were ye to cleanse your eyes, ye would readily perceive how My deeds testify to the truth of My words, how My words are a guide to My deeds.” Gleanings, pp. 256-257

And of course these were not just empty words because he sacrificed His Life for God, enduring imprisonment, persecution, exile and banishment for 40 years. No delusional man would do that.

“Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85

Again, you keep telling me what you don't think a delusional person would be able to do, but you keep failing to tell me why. What would prevent a person who sincerely believes that they are a messenger from god but is mistaken from being able to rehabilitate the Babi community or to write on a variety of diverse subjects? Very intelligent and articulate people are capable of deluding themselves into believing things that aren't true.

As for the psychology, not everyone who has deluded themselves can be said to have a 'delusional disorder'. Plenty of people who are delusional about something in their lives do not fit into any of your psychological categories.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, you keep telling me what you don't think a delusional person would be able to do, but you keep failing to tell me why. What would prevent a person who sincerely believes that they are a messenger from god but is mistaken from being able to rehabilitate the Babi community or to write on a variety of diverse subjects? Very intelligent and articulate people are capable of deluding themselves into believing things that aren't true.

As for the psychology, not everyone who has deluded themselves can be said to have a 'delusional disorder'. Plenty of people who are delusional about something in their lives do not fit into any of your psychological categories.

Okay, if you want to believe that Baha’u’llah was deluded in a non-clinical sense I am not going to try to talk you out if it. It is a logical possibility, but the other logical possibility is that He actually got communication from God, as He said

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon Mycouch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.”” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

I cannot imagine why anyone would make something like that up but YMMV.

Of course nobody should believe such a bold claim without doing a thorough investigation and looking at all the evidence.

 

[epronovost]

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon Mycouch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.”” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

Just like that, it sounds like the raving of any mentally unstable streat preachers. In fact, for something written in the late 19th century, it sounds both archaic and is lacking in any and all form of originality or clever insight.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just like that, it sounds like the raving of any mentally unstable streat preachers. In fact, for something written in the late 19th century, it sounds both archaic and is lacking in any and all form of originality or clever insight.

To assume that it is *what it sounds like* to you without looking at any other evidence would be the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

I thought atheists were smarter than that.
We all have personal opinions but they do not prove anything.

 

[epronovost]

To assume that it is *what it sounds like* to you without looking at any other evidence would be the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions.

I thought atheists were smarter than that.
We all have personal opinions but they do not prove anything.

Yes it would indeed be a hasty generalization, but unless the speakers makes a complete 180, I am extremely dubious any of what he says is remotely sound and astute. If the quote you provided is supposed to be him or her at its best, then it's a terrible first impression. Let's say that on a first date it would have been a disaster. First impression count.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Just like that, it sounds like the raving of any mentally unstable street preachers. In fact, for something written in the late 19th century, it sounds both archaic and is lacking in any and all form of originality or clever insight.

I am extremely dubious any of what he says is remotely sound and astute. If the quote you provided is supposed to be him or her at its best, then it's a terrible first impression. Let's say that on a first date it would have been a disaster.

That is what I have mentioned all this time, but they are hooked - for some reason.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes it would indeed be a hasty generalization, but unless the speakers makes a complete 180, I am extremely dubious any of what he says is remotely sound and astute. If the quote you provided is supposed to be him or her at its best, then it's a terrible first impression. Let's say that on a first date it would have been a disaster. First impression count.

That is not representative. It was simply Baha'u'llah's proclamation to the king, explaining what happened to him when God spoke to him, and how He was not educated in schools.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is what I have mentioned all this time, but they are hooked - for some reason.

As if a fallible human being can judge a Manifestation of God and how He writes.