Theists, if a charlatan existed...

[PureX]

Unless he is out to make "why you do it" the same as "why he does it." Then we have a problem. A problem that happens quite a lot.

Again, it's the actions that matter, not the whys. People think that what they think justifies what they do. But it doesn't matter to anyone but ourselves what we're thinking. What matters is what we do, especially to others. And for some strange reason, we don't seem to understand how important this is. We get so caught up in our own selfish brain-chatter that we no longer recognize that we are members of a very big and inter-dependent human collective, and that our actions effect everyone around us. And we aren't teaching our children the importance of this social responsibility, mostly because we're so ignorant of it, ourselves.

 

[Pudding]

Inspired by @Trailblazer 's thread here: Atheists, if God existed….

Say a charlatan wanted to create a false religion that people would follow. What would that religion look like?

A few of my own thoughts:

- the charlatan would put himself in a position where he could control the beliefs of the religion. He would be the "official" conduit between the religion's adherents and God: a prophet, messenger, messiah, something like that.

- he would arrange it so that no proof of God - or of his own appointment as God's messenger or whatnot - could or should be independently confirmed. Since he would fail such a test, he would make sure he wouldn't be subject to a test.

What else would we see in a false religion?

Edit: I should point out that I'm not asking about signs that a religion must be false. Maybe some of the characteristics of a false religion might also be shared by a true religion. For now, I'm only asking what characteristics a false religion would have, regardless of whether these characteristics are exclusive to false religions.

Those false religions will:

• making a lot of bold empty claims, unverifiable claims

• writing a lot of ambiguous/self-fulfill prophecies

• if any of their bold empty claims or prophecies turns out to be true, hooray! That's the evidence that they're true religions, their Gods are true Gods

• if any of their bold empty claims or prophecies turns out to be false, then making a lot of excuses e.g. it's an inaccurate translation, some of those holy books' passages doesn't say what it say, and/or they're metaphor and not meant to be read literally. Doing whatever they can to twist their previous bold empty claims or prophecies, so as to look like they didn't make any false bold empty claims or prophecies

• prohibit/disencourage their members from getting higher education

• indoctrinate children/people to follow the religions

• making bold empty threat, threatening there are bad consequences for non-members after they die

• making bold empty promises, says that the religions' members will receice rewards after they die

• says that people are spiritually blind if they don't believe whatever those religions says regarding the invisible spiritual realm or their Gods

• and/or go to poor countries, if people become the religions' members, then give them food/cloth/medicine. Use material things to seduce convert people.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you are definitely telling me that our views are mutually exclusive.

Our views are but that does not mean we cannot have mutual respect. But that is just how I feel. You have your own feelings.

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord.....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53

From the chapter: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

("Adherents will be told...") sounds a lot like liberalism.

It would be much like atheism, with its slavish devotion hate and intolerance of all religions and devout religious persons, while maintaining the cult membership of those who hate God and religion, by disguising itself as a-religious, while it rests on unproven hypotheses and great faith.

Except that all of the bitterness, anger, and attacks on this thread are coming from conservative Christians like you two, who can't wait to tell us how much you dislike liberals and atheists.

Most of us have no use for your religion, and that angers you. You want respect for your beliefs, and you don't get it, which you read as hatred of you and intolerance of your religion, But it's something else. We simply don't want what you are offering.

The persecution complexes run deep as well with your ilk. If you're the recipient of a lot of hatred and intolerance, it's because of you. I could have shown you the same contempt and antipathy for you and your religion as you did for atheists, but that's your shtick.

 

[LuisDantas]

Our views are but that does not mean we cannot have mutual respect. But that is just how I feel. You have your own feelings.

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord.....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53

From the chapter: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

We have to consider however that ideologies have consequences. There are forms of respect that shouldn't be given too freely.

 

[Spartan]

Except that all of the bitterness, anger, and attacks on this thread are coming from conservative Christians like you two, who can't wait to tell us how much you dislike liberals and atheists.

Most of us have no use for your religion, and that angers you. You want respect for your beliefs, and you don't get it, which you read as hatred of you and intolerance of your religion, But it's something else. We simply don't want what you are offering.

The persecution complexes run deep as well with your ilk. If you're the recipient of a lot of hatred and intolerance, it's because of you. I could have shown you the same contempt and antipathy for you and your religion as you did for atheists, but that's your shtick.

Flush.

Next time you're down and out, then, try finding a BITTER ATHEIST'S HOMELESS SHELTER.

 

[Trailblazer]

We have to consider however that ideologies have consequences. There are forms of respect that shouldn't be given too freely.

I understand your point, but it is the ideologies that have consequences, not the individuals that hold them.

I think everyone deserves respect unless they have selfish private motives, or if they are a liar or a criminal. Respecting people like that only makes their behaviors worse because they think your respect means you have been deceived by them.

 

[epronovost]

Flush.

Next time you're down and out, then, try finding a BITTER ATHEIST'S HOMELESS SHELTER.

You won't find a bitter atheist homeless shelter anymore then you will find a bitter christian homeless shelter or a bitter anything charity. That's what bitterness does to you, but there are numerous secular organisation providing shelter or legal help and representation to homeless and poor people around the world. You might have herd of the Foundation Beyond Belief which is very active in the domain of disaster recovery, providing shelter for people who lost their homes, but also in education and international development. For such a young organisation, they have done some impressive work. You should check out their website.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Inspired by @Trailblazer 's thread here: Atheists, if God existed….

Say a charlatan wanted to create a false religion that people would follow. What would that religion look like?

A few of my own thoughts:

- the charlatan would put himself in a position where he could control the beliefs of the religion. He would be the "official" conduit between the religion's adherents and God: a prophet, messenger, messiah, something like that.

- he would arrange it so that no proof of God - or of his own appointment as God's messenger or whatnot - could or should be independently confirmed. Since he would fail such a test, he would make sure he wouldn't be subject to a test.

What else would we see in a false religion?

Edit: I should point out that I'm not asking about signs that a religion must be false. Maybe some of the characteristics of a false religion might also be shared by a true religion. For now, I'm only asking what characteristics a false religion would have, regardless of whether these characteristics are exclusive to false religions.

When developing a charlatan "play", snake oil is always a good way to go.

The charlatan will then invent a problem, convince you that you suffer from it, and then claim that his religion (or whatever it is that he's trying to sell you) is the only cure.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I agree that this is what we would see in a charlatan who wanted to create a false religion.

Money, power, influence, social control, ...

Note that one doesn't necessarily have to invent a brand new religion. There's enough examples of people taking an existing religion and subsequently abusing it to rob people from their money or gain their unconditional loyalty.

A charlatan creating a false religion would have certain personal characteristics. He would be selfish and he would create a religion that was self-aggrandizing. He would want people to worship him rather than God and he would probably want to get something for himself; like fame, fortune, or even sex (many false prophets have been sex abusers). He would probably want to live high on the hog, in a palatial mansion, not live with meager means.

The charlatan would not be content with a few followers; he would want many followers, because he would see this as a reflection of his success, in an arrogant egotistical manner.

The charlatan would not encourage people to investigate his religion before they believed in it, but rather he would tell them to believe it on faith alone. He would tell them not to look at any other religions and he would tell them all other religions are false and that his religion was the “only way.”

The charlatan would not do anything that required any personal sacrifices and he would squelch anyone who opposed him and not tolerate any abuse. He would use violence and force if necessary in order to deal with anyone who opposed his religion.

Any scriptures of this religion would be self-aggrandizing and they would not promote worshiping a God but rather promote worship of the charlatan.

There have been many charlatans in the past that didn't share many of these characteristics as you are defining them. Sounds like you are primarily going out of your way to "defining" it in such a way that your own religion can't possibly qualify.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We cannot ever prove that, all we can do is investigate the life of the messenger, carefully examine his character, look at what he did on his mission, read what he wrote. Could a delusional man do all of that, write all of that?

How would that give you any kind of hint to wheter or not he's delusional?
At best it would tell you that he was acting in accordance with the delusion, if it's a delusion.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is such a purposeful misrepresentation of atheism. Nothing new, of course... so don't think you're being clever or original with any of this... but it is crap. I don't "hate god" or "hate religion" (though I will admit to disliking the modes of thinking that religious people tend to engage in, and the poor arguments they tend to make without even realizing how poor they are) - I simply don't believe any of your claims, and can easily point to the fact that you can't provide compelling evidence for any of them. There's simply no reason to believe you, and yes, I am in the business of not believing things that do not provide adequate reason, explanation nor comport with reality as it can be experienced. I also take it a step further and engage those who do believe and heavily challenge their beliefs to try and get them to understand why it is they needn't be believed by anyone at all. So that maybe, just maybe, someday these believers won't be so surprised when they come across someone who doesn't believe them, and thinks they are full of crap - and it won't be such a big deal for anyone to have their beliefs challenged. Because it shouldn't be, at all, a big deal. Especially if you have the goods (i.e. evidence) to back yourself up.

Yet you remain active at RF, happily knocking down the beliefs of we deluded souls. I don't go to asylums to discuss flat Earth theories!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Except that all of the bitterness, anger, and attacks on this thread are coming from conservative Christians like you two, who can't wait to tell us how much you dislike liberals and atheists.

Most of us have no use for your religion, and that angers you. You want respect for your beliefs, and you don't get it, which you read as hatred of you and intolerance of your religion, But it's something else. We simply don't want what you are offering.

The persecution complexes run deep as well with your ilk. If you're the recipient of a lot of hatred and intolerance, it's because of you. I could have shown you the same contempt and antipathy for you and your religion as you did for atheists, but that's your shtick.

No! I like liberals.

Just kidding--but stop trolling Christians on RF and I'll stop baiting you.

And if you "simply don't want what we're offering", visit The (un)Thinking Atheist. I won't bother you there by exuding God in your threads!

 

[epronovost]

No! I like liberals.

Just kidding--but stop trolling Christians on RF and I'll stop baiting you.

And if you "simply don't want what we're offering", visit The (un)Thinking Atheist. I won't bother you there by exuding God in your threads!

The Thinking Athesit Forum doesn't exist anymore. Seth Andrew, who hosted it, decided to shut it down, a decision that was received very acrymoniously by the community which was still thriving at that point. It has been replaced by the Atheist Discussion forum who counts a large portion of the same members including myself for example.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Yet you remain active at RF, happily knocking down the beliefs of we deluded souls. I don't go to asylums to discuss flat Earth theories!

Misrepresentation yet again... and this time you're misrepresenting YOURSELF. Or, at least, how you think I view you.

You see, unlike you, I understand that your religion is probably one of the ONLY areas of your life where you rely on such flimsy evidence and almost nothing more than the hearsay of others to come to such grandiose conclusions. So I don't believe you to be "deluded" on some grand scale, or "insane." You simply grant "God" and all your religious trappings WAY more leeway when it comes to skeptical analysis and scrutiny. Otherwise, if you didn't, then you should also heartily believe just about anyone's alien abduction stories... and while we're at it, you should also simultaneously believe everything the Muslims believe, and everything Hindus believe... because they have just about the same exact caliber of evidence and ability to demonstrate their claims as your religion does. But instead you have chosen this ONE area within which to let all skepticism and incredulity fly out the window.

 

[Spartan]

(To Billiards Ball):

You see, unlike you, I understand that your religion is probably one of the ONLY areas of your life where you rely on such flimsy evidence and almost nothing more than the hearsay of others to come to such grandiose conclusions....

Tell me, do you believe Julius Caesar was murdered in or around 44 BC?

And what percentage of ancient historical persons and events would you guess is reported by hearsay?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Tell me, do you believe Julius Caesar was murdered in or around 44 BC?

And what percentage of ancient historical persons and events would you guess is reported by hearsay?

Believing, disbelieving, or remaining indifferent to this claim is not assumed to have huge impacts on my life and livelihood, is it? In other words... who really cares if Julius Caesar was murdered in or around 44 BC? Someone may... and that someone can go investigate to their heart's content. Me? Fat chance. I couldn't muster up enough care to even Google whether the date you're giving me here is even close to accurate. And do I need to care? Not in the slightest.

As regards claims about a God existing who may have some designs on my entire life, and may even have much to say about what goes on after I die... well, that is an entirely different matter, isn't it? I start to care very much whether or not such a claim is true. And do you know what I did as a result? I investigated, and read-up and fact-checked and searched and listened to other's opinions, and attempted to do my own "experimentation." And do you know what I turned up in all of that? Nothing. Not one thing. I realized all I had were other's confusing and contradictory words to base my conclusion on... and it wasn't nearly enough. So, it sits in the same bin as "Julius Caesar was murdered in or around 44 BC." May or may not be true, and there remains absolutely no effect on my life one way or the other. If there's a quiz on it, I could probably do pretty well... otherwise, I don't truly "believe it" in any meaningful way.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That is an excellent question, how can we ever know anyone got messages from God?

We cannot ever prove that, all we can do is investigate the life of the messenger, carefully examine his character, look at what he did on his mission, read what he wrote. Could a delusional man do all of that, write all of that?

Why couldn't a delusional man do all of that?

 

[Spartan]

Believing, disbelieving, or remaining indifferent to this claim is not assumed to have huge impacts on my life and livelihood, is it? In other words... who really cares if Julius Caesar was murdered in or around 44 BC? Someone may... and that someone can go investigate to their heart's content. Me? Fat chance. I couldn't muster up enough care to even Google whether the date you're giving me here is even close to accurate. And do I need to care? Not in the slightest.

As regards claims about a God existing who may have some designs on my entire life, and may even have much to say about what goes on after I die... well, that is an entirely different matter, isn't it? I start to care very much whether or not such a claim is true. And do you know what I did as a result? I investigated, and read-up and fact-checked and searched and listened to other's opinions, and attempted to do my own "experimentation." And do you know what I turned up in all of that? Nothing. Not one thing. I realized all I had were other's confusing and contradictory words to base my conclusion on... and it wasn't nearly enough. So, it sits in the same bin as "Julius Caesar was murdered in or around 44 BC." May or may not be true, and there remains absolutely no effect on my life one way or the other. If there's a quiz on it, I could probably do pretty well... otherwise, I don't truly "believe it" in any meaningful way.

No evidence for the historical Jesus? That's an astonishing claim. And that's an amazing amount of evidence that you would have had to kick to the curb, including all of the evidences in these works:

The New Testament;

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas;

“The Historical Jesus of the Gospels,” by Dr. Craig Keener

"The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and

"The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas.

"New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell;

As for hearsay, most of history is hearsay, so make sure you rip out major portions from your history books and burn them.

I've read these accounts of Jesus and found them incredibly compelling, as have hundreds of millions of others.

 

[Trailblazer]

There have been many charlatans in the past that didn't share many of these characteristics as you are defining them. Sounds like you are primarily going out of your way to "defining" it in such a way that your own religion can't possibly qualify.

No, I just threw a few things out of the top of my head. Then I learned a few things about charlatans I did not know after other people started posting.