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Featured Theists: Atheism is a Religion?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by JChnsc19, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    By what "reasoning" are you assuming that human imagination is not 'real'? How is it that you cannot see the blatant absurdity and bias in such an assumption, when "reality" for we humans is, itself, an IMAGINED condition? Are you aware of the fact that what you call "objective reality" is in fact an imagined state that you have never and can never experience?
    And yet you have never and will never know what "objective reality" is, because YOU ARE THE SUBJECT of the subjective reality in which you are living, and you will never be able to escape your own cognitive self.
    Science does not pursue truth, nor does it find any. What science pursues is physical functionality. And all it ever finds out is 'what works', physically, within a specific set of parameters. Knowing what works, physically, may be quite useful to us, but it is not 'truth'; it's just a collection of relative physical facts that we can use to our advantage.
    For it to "change as we learn more", it must have been false, previous to our new knowledge. So how can it have been the 'truth' when it was shown to be false when we "learned more"? And when have we learned enough to declare it "really and truly true"? I am sorry, but are you beginning to see the foolishness, here?
    It's very simple. The truth is 'what is'. But unfortunately, we humans do not have access to nor the capacity to grasp the totality of 'what is'. Which means we will never know the truth of it. All we will ever be able to access and grasp is what our limited and relative natures will allow. And all that will ever give us is the fuel with which to imagine a truth that we can never verify.
    What you don't seem to understand is that what you just described is a huge and inevitable BIAS. Science is a BIAS. Materialism is a BIAS. Theism (and atheism) are a BIAS. What we call reality is a biased, imaginary, conception of reality that we will never be able to verify.

    Once we accept this fact of our limited existence, perhaps we can dispense with these delusions that we are pursuing 'truth', and begin to accept that what we are really pursuing is relative functionality. And that is where religions and science and politics and philosophy all finally meet.
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    This is because there's no clear concept of 'godness', the real quality that a real god has and a fake god lacks.

    It seems odd after all this time that not only does God have no real qualities but the push has been on for a long time to define God solely by what [he]'s not. In my view, the apophatic take is both the ultimate cop-out yet at the same time a necessity because of the silliness that results when one attributes real qualities to God.
     
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  3. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    You don't seem to understand that your "reality" is, itself, a "self-deception". Do you really imagine that you can know what reality is? Do you really think that in possessing a few relative facts about history and how the physical world functions that you now know 'the truth' of it?

    Once we get over this absurd egocentric delusion that we can know 'the truth', we can finally face the fact that what we humans live for, and by, is relative functionality. The "truth", to us, is whatever works for us in the moment and under the present circumstances. And that's where faith in "God" can become very useful to us, just like science does.
    Existence exhibits incredible complexity, balance, and transcendence. So much so that we humans cannot comprehend it all with our own intelligence. Existence also is the result of an innate 'design' mechanism (one that we are seeking, but as yet have not managed to grasp). Which implies that existence is the result of intent. Nothing can result from absolute chaos but chaos. For existence to exist, that chaos had to have some form of limitation imposed on it. And it so happens that those limitations resulted in incomprehensible complexity, balance, and transcendence. This clearly implies both intelligence and intent. It's why we are able to 'study it' through science.
    Scientists believe the 'evidence' for their theories when that evidence 'works for them' in application. Why should the evidence for god be any different?
    This answer you will have to seek on your own.
     
  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I agree completely, when i have queried the claim "[my] god is real" more often than not, results in silliness including side stepping, obfuscation, opinion and often enough, down right lies.

    The conclusion can only be that gods are in the mind of the believer which would make any definition meaningless if it were to encompass 6 billion individual ideas plus those of history and any in the future.
     
  5. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Reality : the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

    Also you appear to have a rather odd idea of scientific evidence.

    Scientific evidence : Scientific evidence is evidence which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is expected to be empirical evidence and interpretation in accordance with scientific method

    Do "claims" or "opinion" regarding any of the 4000 + gods (excluding the 33 million hindu gods) meet the requirements of scientific evidence?
     
  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps that translates as, I don't think of my religion analytically, I think in stories, so I don't know how to answer your question ─ confusion leading to defensiveness leading to talking oneself into a corner.
    Yes, if believers can't supply a coherent definition of a real god then that only leaves imaginary gods. However, on those very rare occasions when my believing friends and/or rellies and I talk about such things, they all (in their own way) say, I'm not worried about the technicalities, it works for me.

    And yet perhaps even they are changing with time ─ my kind, generous sister-in-law died last year, and astonished me by leaving iron-clad instructions that her funeral was NOT to be conducted at the church where she'd been a parishioner forever, because she found the present incumbent intolerably modern, and therefore it was all to happen in the undertaker's chapel (where it went very well).
     
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  7. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    I have no doubt you believe in noahs ark.

    That you actually value that which is
    real, or true? Obviously not.
     
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Blind faith is a powerful motivator
     
  9. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    "Actually" exists? What does that even mean? What do we know of "actuality" apart from 'whatever works for us in the moment and under the present circumstances'? ... The relative fact of apparent function.
    "Serves to support or counter" ... "serves", how? You mean it functions within the criteria (circumstances) set by the 'experiment'. After all, isn't "evidence for" simply that which works as expected, while "evidence against" is that which does not? So when I say that science is nothing more than the pursuit of whatever works (according to the biased expectations of the theory being tested), how am I wrong? How is science not a massive bias in favor of functionality? So biased, in fact, that many humans mistake this for 'truth', itself. Perhaps including you.
     
  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    If you dont understand what "actually" means then we are stuck right there.

    The dictionary is a good place to find accepted definitions.

    And single word semantics are not much use when examining a phrase as a whole, that phrase was " Serves to support or counter "

    And there you go again with your "You mean" NO, the dictionary means. Hope that is clear to you.

    How are you wrong? You asked... You make up stories to suite your sensibilities with no regard the the reality.

    I have provided definitions, you dont like them then feel free to take it up with those who compile the definitions.

    How? The scientific method insures that it is not biassed but evidence based. That you dont approve of the evidence is hardly the fault of science.
     
  11. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    Exactly, especially the extreme non-skaters, they're ice skaters just as much as the ice skaters.
     
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  12. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Strange Loop

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    We can know something of the part of the reality that we have access to. The evidence is that we can use the knowledge to manipulate it - hence the device you are using to read this on.

    This all falls spectacularly apart when to apply exactly the same 'logic' to whatever 'intelligence' and 'intent' you see as being behind it. Why things exist and are the way they are is ultimately a mystery - but it is made no less mysterious and unexplained if you posit some sort of god to 'explain' it, because said god would be just as (or more) mysterious.

    No. Scientists believe the evidence for their theories because it works for other people too (it is intersubjectively verifiable). Other people can then use them to make technology so you can make absurd statements comparing their evidence to 'evidence' for god.
     
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  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Hey, people who think atheism is a religion: does it follow that you also think that atheism should get the same benefits as religion?

    For instance, a few years ago, the Freedom From Religion Foundation applied for a parsonage exemption and were denied. You think they should have been allowed to get it, right?

    Or think of the way that, say, some religious adoption agencies refuse to place children with LGBTQ families. Should an atheist adoption agency be allowed to refuse to place a child with families that aren't in accordance with that organization's beliefs?

    You agree with all that, right?
     
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  14. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    No you ninny! It makes you an ice skate.
    Not even a pair of skates. This is sad.
     
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  15. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think if any group owns buildings and property and so forth that use public infrastructure they should pay taxes to support that infrastructure. And I also think that private organizations should be allowed to discriminate as they choose, so long as they are not misrepresenting themselves as public organizations, and they are not otherwise breaking the law.
     
  16. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    Please provide a source for your claim that there
    are atheist creeds, atheist churches, atheist scholarships, atheist conventions, atheist groups, etc. And that atheist groups have pecking order structure as presidents, vice-presidents, directors, field organizers, program directors and assistance's, etc.

    I've never heard of the King of Atheism. Is that the correct term? The king? Or is it the Atheist Pope? See how well organised they are? So well organised that I, who have been an atheist for most of my life, have never heard of them.
     
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  17. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    The it doesn't count as a non-religion, since it is a religion.
     
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  18. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    What kind of belief? Does my belief that Star Trek is better than Star Wars count as such a belief?

    Apart from "I find insufficient evidence to conclude that God exists," what is there that can be called the atheist ideology, dogma or ideal?

    And what atheist rituals and texts are there?

    Argument from incredulity.

    Sounds to me like you are defining atheism the way you want so you can use it to prove the point you want to prove. So strawman as well.

    Wow, you really don't get it.

    If we lived in a world where lots of people believed that little fairies lived in your shoes, and you had to wear the right colour socks and put your shoes on in a certain way so as to avoid insulting the fairies, you would start speaking up about how there is no evidence for the fairies and how forcing people to live according to the fairy believer's rules was silly.

    Replace fairies in shoes with God and you've got atheists.
     
  19. lukethethird

    lukethethird Active Member

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    I just want to know the atheists' secret hand shake so I could hang with them.
     
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  20. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    I actually value, it is real and true.

    After 2014, science provided the evidence to support the Bible verses:

    Genesis 1:6-8 New International Version (NIV)

    And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

    Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water


    Genesis 7:17-19 New International Version (NIV)
    For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.

    There’s as much water in Earth’s mantle as in all the oceans

    The deep Earth holds about the same amount of water as our oceans. That’s the conclusion from experiments on rocks typical of those in the mantle transition zone, a global buffer layer 410 to 660 kilometres beneath us that separates the upper from the lower mantle.

    “If our estimation is correct, it means there’s a large amount of water in the deep Earth,” says Hongzhan Fei at the University of Bayreuth in Germany. “The total amount of water in the deep Earth is nearly the same as the mass of all the world’s ocean water.”

    The results add to mounting evidence that there is much more water than expected beneath us, mostly locked up within the crystals of minerals as ions rather than liquid water. [continued below]

    Genesis 8:2-5 New International Version (NIV)
    Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.

    the springs of the deep
    [as continued...]

    At least one team has previously discovered water-rich rock fragments in volcanic debris originating from the mantle. Another group has conducted experiments suggesting that the water at these depths was formed here on Earth rather than being delivered to the primordial planet by comets and asteroids.

    “The vast amount of water locked inside rocks of this deep region of the mantle will certainly force us to think harder about how it ever got there, or perhaps how it could have always been there since solidification of the mantle,” says Steven Jacobsen of Northwestern University in Illinois, who wasn’t connected with the new research. “It’s a key question about the evolution of the Earth, which extends to extrasolar planets as well.”

    the floodgates of the heavens
    At any moment, the atmosphere contains an astounding 37.5 million billion gallons of water, in the invisible vapor phase. This is enough water to cover the entire surface of the Earth (land and ocean) with one inch of rain.

    2014 AD Science compliments the 1200 BC verses of the Bible :cool:
     
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