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Theism. Is it by default anti-evolution?

Are theists by default against evolution?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 38 95.0%
  • Something else that I will explain

    Votes: 2 5.0%

  • Total voters
    40

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I do think it states when it was that the first life developed. Compare that to the age of the solar system.

The specifics of dating the first life is done using a number of methods but the theory of evolution itself doesn't directly tell us when it was. As I said in #93, lumping all the science that disagrees with a literal (YEC) interpretation of genesis and calling it all "the theory of evolution" seems to be a deliberate tactic that attempts to obscure just how many different aspects of science need to be denied to support such an interpretation.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
The specifics of dating the first life is done using a number of methods but the theory of evolution itself doesn't directly tell us when it was. As I said in #93, lumping all the science that disagrees with a literal (YEC) interpretation of genesis and calling it all "the theory of evolution" seems to be a deliberate tactic that attempts to obscure just how many different aspects of science need to be denied to support such an interpretation.
In my original post I stated that the Theory of Evolution does make a statement of when it was that first plant life developed.
Evolutionary history of plants - Wikipedia
I'm not lumping anything together here.
I do not call it all "the theory of evolution".
I do not obscure anything here.
 
+
no. God promised that he will not destroy all life again. The Isaiah passage you quoted is not about (the destruction of) life.

he can become one. He can incarnate, I think.
Everything is literal by default... unless it's prophecy.
If it's not the Book of Revelation, I handle this question that way: when a child understands it in a literal manner, it's literal. But it can be metaphorical also. In addition to the literal meaning.
If you exclude a literal meaning too often... then the uneducated and the children would have a disadvantage. God is against discrimination, I think.

1/ not sure
2/ does not break promises.
3/ he regrets, many people don't fathom a God who regrets. Bible says he does, so I see it that way, too.
4/ I believe God can assume a body... but does not always have to have one.

no, I clarified it in my custom title.


Great answers! Thank you very much for those.

It is understood by a lot of people that God will bring about the end of the Universe or this Earth and will in its place create a New Earth and Heavens (which were understood to mean the whole of the Heavens, the Universe), and in doing so, nothing will be able to survive or live, everything will be wiped out, as the Old Earth won't even be around, it will be gone, so anything that was on it won't be around, it will be gone with it, also known as dead, destroyed, finito, boomy, gone-gone, kapow, kablooey, zip, ziddle, swoosh, no longer present, no longer active, no longer animated, no longer alive, not supporting any life.

Thus, it is understood that everything will be gone, dead, wiped out, worse than the flood (which didn't kill everything anyway either, just most things according to some), and then they will be resurrected on the New Earth in fresh re-created bodies brought forth.

So this promise about "I'll never wipe out everything" seems to be untrue, because not only did God not wipe out everything in the first place with the flood, but then goes ahead and does wipe out the entire Earth and the Universe so that there is nothing left in existence of those two, and puts in their place a new one, breaking the promise, but quickly fixing the issue by bringing the things back to life (so it isn't too big of a deal), the big deal though is that the language seems to be imprecise enough that it can count for an untrue statement or not exactly or entirely true, and if there is this kind of leeway, then the little children you mentioned might misunderstand (because of being simple little ijuts), and then the other promises become a little questionable or doubtful, like is God using some sort of riddle language, tricky language? Why not explaining things or being very obvious or easy to understand or blatant?

So then, if these things are called into doubt, how do we know what to believe, what it means, and what interpretation to take? Its reminiscent of the sneakiness of Abraham "Well she is my half-sister!".

If we are to take it all literally by default, here are some things that you likely believe happened (and can you explain how you personally view these things, or why you are so certain in this book and its statements? Like why do you, by default, seem to believe literally whatever at all it says? Let alone that you take it as literal for the most part, but why do you even believe in it at all with such fierce certainty? You wouldn't like it or find it sensible for someone else to be so fierce in their belief of some other book, "just because", would you?):

You believe in the 6 or 7 Day Creation, You believe that there were beings created who were not human as far as you know but who could mate with human women (the Sons of God who descended), that these are called Sons of God (are they literally Gods Sons? God is Literally having sex and producing Sons? Why not? Suddenly not literal?) and these things then lust after humans (did God mate with a Lusty Being to produce these, or is God a lusty being himself, so that these Sons carry God's lusty nature?) and mate with them (they apparently have appendages and genetics and sperm and all that to do so, which mixes with humans, I guess because God is in the Image of Man so must also have sperm), and then these beings breed out Giant monster Demi-God things who were the "Heroes" and whatever maybe of mythology, and then these Giants Half-God descendants of God go around causing trouble, until their Grandpa God kills them? The Evil Sons of God (God must carry the Evil Gene somehow) then are placed under the Earth, where they may even continue to somehow influence us (do you believe in the Book of Enoch or just whatever some committee decided is God speaking and not the other things people seemed to think were also revelatory scripture? The Ethiopians are fools?).

Also, the Bible said something like "You are Gods" and God says "Will become like Us" and seems to be talking to a bunch of Gods, even though later it says there is No Other God, what is going on there? Were there others and God De-Godded them?

What is Jesus? Is Jesus God, or God's Only Begotten Son? Yet, who are these Sons of God before Jesus? What is "begotten" and how is that word not very confusing for people or children unless it really means that Jesus is literally God's genetic offspring, just like it seems to say in the genealogy that traces back to Adam then God as Adam's ancestor?

What do you take the Devil to be, can the Devil incarnate or take physical forms as well? Why has the Devil been allowed so much and allowed to go and hurt so many, if you were a loving person, would you let some mad predator screw around with all your kids on a regular basis? Wouldn't you thus be a failure of a Father, a wicked Father, wouldn't it be right for you to be thrown into prison for allowing some known predator go and mess around with all the kids in the playground and you do nothing and murmur to yourself "Its his American Right! Freeeeduuuumb!"

You've always been very patient and kind, I appreciate it a lot.

You may also enjoy this thread:
The Incompatibility of Religious Views (like some Christian views with others)

I'd like you to contribute there if possible regarding "incompatibility". It has beautiful writing present as attributed to the Apostle Paul.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
The specifics of dating the first life is done using a number of methods but the theory of evolution itself doesn't directly tell us when it was. As I said in #93, lumping all the science that disagrees with a literal (YEC) interpretation of genesis and calling it all "the theory of evolution" seems to be a deliberate tactic that attempts to obscure just how many different aspects of science need to be denied to support such an interpretation.
but my original post referred to plant life in particular. And I made a comparison to the age of the sun.
as I said in my previous post: I don't lump together here.
I don't call it all the theory of evolution.
I don't obscure anything-
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Thank you Artis,
bring about the end of the Universe or this Earth and will in its place create a New Earth and Heavens (which were understood to mean the whole of the Heavens, the Universe), and in doing so, nothing will be able to survive or live,
this, however, is not biblical.
The whole idea of the so-called rapture goes like this; when Jesus comes back for judgement, the believers will be somehow lifted up into the sky. It sounds a bit strange, ... but these are the terms in which Bible operates, see 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
So even if below, the earth gets destroyed, it doesn't matter for those who are lifted up. as oppoed to being wiped out, finito, and so on (you're very eloquent, though)
So believe me: every promise is kept by the Lord.
and can you explain how you personally view these things, or why you are so certain in this book and its statements? Like why do you, by default, seem to believe literally whatever at all it says?
I believe that the educated don't have a spirtual advantage over those who are not. So you only can take those verses metaphorically that the simple minded craftsman next door is able to take metaphorically, too.
God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11.
So, the more complex some Bible passages are painted by the ones who favor metaphorical-only interpretations .. the more there is a conflict with Romans 2:11.
(are they literally Gods Sons? God is Literally having sex and producing Sons? Why not? Suddenly not literal?)
I'm not sure here. Ask a kid what they think when it says "God's son"... I don't think they think of sex...
The Evil Sons of God
they weren't evil, in my interpretation. Their children were a bit, it seems.
do you believe in the Book of Enoch
I normally say Bible only. The Book of Enoch is special, though. I believe it's getting cited by Jesus (note: I don't know which one he cited! If I know right... there are several books carrying that name...). I didn't read it though.
a bunch of Gods, even though later it says there is No Other God,
I personally don't rule out there are others. Nor does Bible, I think, Bible plainly says "you should not have other Gods" ... but this doesn't mean they don't exist. One thing is for sure: there are other supernatural beings according to the Bible. Romans 8:38
What is Jesus? Is Jesus God, or God's Only Begotten Son? Yet, who are these Sons of God before Jesus?
In my opinion, Jesus is son and God. However, personally I'm not really interested in how exactly these two jive together with each other. They are together. For me it suffices to stay with that, honestly.
can the Devil incarnate or take physical forms as well?
yes, I think so.
Why has the Devil been allowed so much and allowed to go and hurt so many, if you were a loving person, would you let some mad predator screw around with all your kids on a regular basis?
good question. Here I think that the devil would not have been dangerous, if Eva and Adam would have applied some proper behavior (this is just my two cents, I also make mistakes)
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
I think it is Biblical but stubborn and refusing to see anything except one possibility, the old way of viewing the creation story. I guess we are all stubborn like that to an extent. I think many Christians have not spent time considering the creation story and this has allowed the YEC to come in and be dogmatic about YEC, even to the point where it seems to have turned into a pretty major Christian doctrine in the movement and spread to those who have not or have not been able to consider Genesis much and just believe the Bible and what their teachers tell them. Some people do see Christian fundamentalism as cult like in some respects. (hard to know exactly where to draw the lines for what is fundamentalism however)
Some Christians have gone the other way and just see Genesis as a creation myth.
To me it was not good enough to see it as just a fable, it was too much like a historical narrative, and I think it probably is and that science is showing it to be true.
Personally it seems to me that many must be turned away from belief in the Bible if they are brought up to believe that Genesis can only mean YEC, and then go on to study science.



I think it would depend which Jew you spoke to. Certainly "days" in Genesis 1 and 2 can be see to not be 24 hour days. Genesis 2 for example uses "day" to cover the whole 6 days of creation.



I can see a difference in the use of the Hebrew "bara" and "asah" in the Bible and in Genesis creation story. To me it is obvious that the words are used in different ways but to others the words are interchangeable. Interesting. It is as with the word for 'day', it is obvious to me that it does not mean a 24 hour day in the creation stories but others say it has to mean 24 hour days.
Things can get heated between YECers and other Christians over the subject, but it should not cause such division.
But I'm not really sure what you mean by "is there anything else".

With all due respect, when you tell Jews these words like Bara and asah and what I think and you think they kind of generally smile with amusement. The Genesis and making things by God etc should be clarified with Jewish scholarship.

Thus, I shall concede. Peace.
 
Thank you Artis,

this, however, is not biblical.
The whole idea of the so-called rapture goes like this; when Jesus comes back for judgement, the believers will be somehow lifted up into the sky. It sounds a bit strange, ... but these are the terms in which Bible operates, see 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
So even if below, the earth gets destroyed, it doesn't matter for those who are lifted up. as oppoed to being wiped out, finito, and so on (you're very eloquent, though)
So believe me: every promise is kept by the Lord.

I believe that the educated don't have a spirtual advantage over those who are not. So you only can take those verses metaphorically that the simple minded craftsman next door is able to take metaphorically, too.
God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11.
So, the more complex some Bible passages are painted by the ones who favor metaphorical-only interpretations .. the more there is a conflict with Romans 2:11.

I'm not sure here. Ask a kid what they think when it says "God's son"... I don't think they think of sex...

they weren't evil, in my interpretation. Their children were a bit, it seems.

I normally say Bible only. The Book of Enoch is special, though. I believe it's getting cited by Jesus (note: I don't know which one he cited! If I know right... there are several books carrying that name...). I didn't read it though.

I personally don't rule out there are others. Nor does Bible, I think, Bible plainly says "you should not have other Gods" ... but this doesn't mean they don't exist. One thing is for sure: there are other supernatural beings according to the Bible. Romans 8:38
In my opinion, Jesus is son and God. However, personally I'm not really interested in how exactly these two jive together with each other. They are together. For me it suffices to stay with that, honestly.

yes, I think so.

good question. Here I think that the devil would not have been dangerous, if Eva and Adam would have applied some proper behavior (this is just my two cents, I also make mistakes)

Thank you for the great answers! Also, thank you for calling me eloquent, I appreciate that very much!

You said "they weren't evil, in my interpretation. Their children were a bit, it seems."

If these "Sons of God" who descended and mated with women were not evil beings, then why were they seemingly punished:

2 Peter 2:4
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;"

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling--these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day.

This was understood to refer to these Sons of God who left their positions and had intercourse with women, who are listed in Enoch.

https://awajis.com/jesus-quotes-boo...erit the earth. (Mat 5:5) (Enoch 5:7... More

So, the rapture event mentioned in the New Testament Book of Revelations or wherever a long time after Isaiah is what covers the issue of the promise being kept about not killing everything through the destruction of the old Earth and old Heavens mentioned in Isaiah?

2 Chronicles 36:15
Time and again the LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to His people through His messengers, because He had compassion on them and on His dwelling place.

2 Chronicles 36:16
But they mocked the messengers of God, despising His words and scoffing at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD against His people was stirred up beyond remedy.
 
Part 2

Isaiah 65:11
11But you who forsake the LORD, who forget My holy mountain, who set a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny, 12I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight.”13Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: “My servants will eat, but you will go hungry; My servants will drink, but you will go thirsty; My servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame. 14My servants will shout for joy with a glad heart, but you will cry out with a heavy heart and wail with a broken spirit. 15You will leave behind your name as a curse for My chosen ones, and the Lord GOD will slay you; but to His servants He will give another name.16Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the God of truth, and whoever takes an oath in the land will swear by the God of truth. For the former troubles will be forgotten and hidden from My sight.

17For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.18But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight. 18But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight. 19I will rejoice in Jerusalem and take delight in My people. The sounds of weeping and crying will no longer be heard in her.20No longer will a nursing infant live but a few days, or an old man fail to live out his years. For the youth will die at a hundred years, and he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. 21They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. 22No longer will they build houses for others to inhabit, nor plant for others to eat. For as is the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, and My chosen ones will fully enjoy the work of their hands.23They will not labor in vain or bear children doomed to disaster; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD—they and their descendants with them. 24Even before they call, I will answer, and while they are still speaking, I will hear. 25The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the food of the serpent will be dust. They will neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.

Isaiah 66:1
1This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool. What kind of house will you build for Me? Or where will My place of repose be?2Has not My hand made all these things? And so they came into being,” declares the LORD. “This is the one I will esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, who trembles at My word. 3Whoever slaughters an ox is like one who slays a man; whoever sacrifices a lamb is like one who breaks a dog’s neck; whoever presents a grain offering is like one who offers pig’s blood; whoever offers frankincense is like one who blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways and delighted in their abominations. 4So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight.”5You who tremble at His word, hear the word of the LORD: “Your brothers who hate you and exclude you because of My name have said, ‘Let the LORD be glorified that we may see your joy!’ But they will be put to shame.” 6Hear the uproar from the city; listen to the voice from the temple! It is the voice of the LORD, repaying His enemies what they deserve!

Regarding the Rapture, this guy has some things to say, can you defy him:
Bible Proof The Rapture Theory Is False.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

"
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:10-12

This unspeakable event in which the heavens go away is spoken of in nearly twenty different places in the Bible yet rarely preached on. Job prophesied this event would PRECEDE our Resurrection!"

The Rapture Theory – Let's Get It Right!

What Does the Bible Say About the Rapture?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Why do some of the atheists and theists believe that theism is by default against evolution? There are some atheists that insist a theist must be anti-evolution. Its almost blasphemous for a theist to speak about evolution. Sometimes it is almost a religious, dogmatic, 'this is mine, not yours" kind of argument. Why is that?

In the past there have been many theists who propagated and taught evolution. There have also been many who didnt know about the evolutionary thoughts. So they are not against evolution but are theists themselves. Thus, is it an educated assumption or just a dismissal? Or is it something else?

Even some theists think that theists by default are against evolution. Whats strange is that they dont seem to know or believe there were any theists in the past who even spoke of evolution. Well, that's wrong.

Why?

I believe that God initiated the process of evolution but some misunderstand things like the 7 days of creation which I believe has nothing to do with the earth but the evolution of religion. A day, I believe, refers to a Divine Day when a Prophet such as a Moses, Christ or Muhammad arises. There are about 7 Who have appeared, accounting for the seven days mentioned. They arise about once in a thousand years. So the religious history in this cycle, the Adamic Cycle include Figures such as Christ, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Krishna and the Bab.


But theists have tried to interpret it as earthly evolution and come up empty, because science proves this planet is billions of years old. The only explanation that I find credible, logical and historically fairy sound, is that it refers to the religious history of the Adamic Cycle.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
No many theists believe in evolution. Theists believe God is behind the evolution. God is the source behind the universe and all the natural laws in the universe.
 
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thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Nice to chat with you, Artis!
If these "Sons of God" who descended and mated with women were not evil beings, then why were they seemingly punished:

2 Peter 2:4
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;"

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling--these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day.
oh yes, I might have been wrong then. But look, even Jude does not say that they were evil as persons. Their behavior was wrong. Many people make mistakes.

Isaiah 65:11 ff. says that many will be killed. Not everyone, though.
So, the rapture event mentioned in the New Testament Book of Revelations or wherever a long time after Isaiah is what covers the issue of the promise being kept about not killing everything through the destruction of the old Earth and old Heavens mentioned in Isaiah?
oh yes, this is at least my interpretation. This seems plausible to me, at least.
This guy does not refute the rapture though.
In eschatology, the teaching that is concerned with the time to come, there are three different theories depicting a timeline including the so-called tribulation. The tribulation is a time at which everything is horrible on earth.

1/ first rapture then tribulation
2/ first tribulation then rapture
3/ rapture happens during tribulation.
This guy refutes Nr.1.
I personally stay neutral here.

But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:10-12

This unspeakable event in which the heavens go away is spoken of in nearly twenty different places in the Bible yet rarely preached on. Job prophesied this event would PRECEDE our Resurrection!"
good point. But I think Job is talking about the ones who died a regular death before rapture. Those who have died already.
Note that for some, this rule isn't true, we have Luke 20:38.
So my reconciliation of these two verses: Job wrote really early in history... and what he said was true, but at that time only. Afterwards, Good seems to have changed the rules and Luke 20:38 applies (still today, at least for some, it seems).


It's a good exchange, we need to keep on talking, Artis.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I believe that God initiated the process of evolution but some misunderstand things like the 7 days of creation which I believe has nothing to do with the earth but the evolution of religion. A day, I believe, refers to a Divine Day when a Prophet such as a Moses, Christ or Muhammad arises. There are about 7 Who have appeared, accounting for the seven days mentioned. They arise about once in a thousand years. So the religious history in this cycle, the Adamic Cycle include Figures such as Christ, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Krishna and the Bab.


But theists have tried to interpret it as earthly evolution and come up empty, because science proves this planet is billions of years old. The only explanation that I find credible, logical and historically fairy sound, is that it refers to the religious history of the Adamic Cycle.

Well, you have made a list of 7, but another could make a list of much more, or much less, as needed for that argument.

But nevertheless that counting and allusion is not valid because the 7 days mentioned in the Bible is for creation and all of these people you mentioned came after creation. Quran mentions 6 days. And it says Ayyam, which is a very well known simple language which means a period. It does not mean a day with a morning and evening and 24 hours where the sun rises and sets, and definitely not in the Quran although you can make that with the Biblical account.

As far as I know, in the history of any kind of Quranic exegesis, no one valid has made the case that it was 6 days as you and I know in the English language. Quran bi Quran shows that God says a time period for a man is minuscule for God in two different verses which shows that mans time period is not relative to God.

Thus, there is no indication whatsoever in the Quran to what you alluded.

Peace.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
But theists have tried to interpret it as earthly evolution and come up empty, because science proves this planet is billions of years old

Which theist specifically are you speaking about who tried to interpret the 6 periods or 7 days or whatever as "earthly evolution"? I am interested to know some specific details.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Well, you have made a list of 7, but another could make a list of much more, or much less, as needed for that argument.

But nevertheless that counting and allusion is not valid because the 7 days mentioned in the Bible is for creation and all of these people you mentioned came after creation. Quran mentions 6 days. And it says Ayyam, which is a very well known simple language which means a period. It does not mean a day with a morning and evening and 24 hours where the sun rises and sets, and definitely not in the Quran although you can make that with the Biblical account.

As far as I know, in the history of any kind of Quranic exegesis, no one valid has made the case that it was 6 days as you and I know in the English language. Quran bi Quran shows that God says a time period for a man is minuscule for God in two different verses which shows that mans time period is not relative to God.

Thus, there is no indication whatsoever in the Quran to what you alluded.

Peace.
Creation story is symbolic

From Adam to end of dispensation of the seal of Prophets were 6000 years.
آدم الی خاتم

Symbolically represented as 6 days of creation, each day is a 1000 years. Meaning creation of human civilization.
Muhammad was the last prophet of this cycle, known as adamic cycle. After this 6000 years, the end of world was to come. Meaning the end of an older world, and beginning of a new world. In the Quran, it is referred as new creation. It starts by the advant of the Qaim or the Mahdi of Islam.
 
Nice to chat with you, Artis!

oh yes, I might have been wrong then. But look, even Jude does not say that they were evil as persons. Their behavior was wrong. Many people make mistakes.

Isaiah 65:11 ff. says that many will be killed. Not everyone, though.

oh yes, this is at least my interpretation. This seems plausible to me, at least.

This guy does not refute the rapture though.
In eschatology, the teaching that is concerned with the time to come, there are three different theories depicting a timeline including the so-called tribulation. The tribulation is a time at which everything is horrible on earth.

1/ first rapture then tribulation
2/ first tribulation then rapture
3/ rapture happens during tribulation.
This guy refutes Nr.1.
I personally stay neutral here.


good point. But I think Job is talking about the ones who died a regular death before rapture. Those who have died already.
Note that for some, this rule isn't true, we have Luke 20:38.
So my reconciliation of these two verses: Job wrote really early in history... and what he said was true, but at that time only. Afterwards, Good seems to have changed the rules and Luke 20:38 applies (still today, at least for some, it seems).


It's a good exchange, we need to keep on talking, Artis.

Thank you! Why are there are a sub-set of Christians who deny the rapture event (maybe not the guy I quoted, but others)? They don't perceive the "meeting in the air" to refer to anything but that, and they must think that they will be temporarily eliminated during the wiping out of the whole Universe and then resurrected after the New Earth is brought about. It isn't really a major issue overall, its just that it seemed to be a sort of tricky way to get around that promise about not wiping everything out. My own beliefs on this matter are that, even if there are people who are taken up and whatever, such as Enoch was said to be as well, that the wiping out is the wiping out of the entire Universe, and that human beings won't be present for these creative acts, but may be, though where they would be standing around would be some part of the Universe ultimately, which is why when there is a renovation and total removal, a clean reset and refresh, then only God alone (who is not a physical, material, being, not made of Information but Non-Information) can be present and performing this, wipes it all to nothing, then produces a New Heavens (Universe) and a New Earth, after which is conducted the Day of Judgment, where the humans are regenerated and standing for trial and receive their records and are judged, placed in Hell which is part of the New Earth or inhabit the surface and the New everything which covers the surface of this New and perfectly just Earth where there is no more suffering and anxiety.

Anyway, regardless of any of that, last night I received some word that you are to expect some reward these days for your goodness (and your much appreciated patience and kindness towards me), so these disputable matters, which Paul encouraged us not to really fuss about too much (which you can see in my other thread where I quote Paul extensively The Incompatibility of Religious Views (like some Christian views with others) ) are minor or irrelevant enough to be overlooked.

The main point had been, if God is being tricky about promises or somehow misleading people regarding them or fulfilling them in unexpected ways, how can we trust what God promises? The answer to that is likely that God's promises can not be trusted, but what can be trusted or hoped in to save us except God? So we are left in a position where, God can bring about anything, trick, or defy anything, and we don't know what to expect, but can only at best hope that God will do what is favorable for us, and diligently try to operate in our lives in a way that we deem or calculate should be most unquestionable in its apparent and even concealed "goodness" so that no people could really even question it much and nothing really questionable is thought, said, or done, and we await our hope in God's saving us from Death and bringing us out from Destruction.

What is it about evolution you object to in particular? Would an appropriate compromise be as follows:
You say "I don't know how exactly anything may be meant to be read, understood, or interpreted, but I believe in God, and I believe only God alone can save me and help me, and so whatever may be true regarding things I was not present for or that I am not aware of, there is none other than the Almighty God who is responsible for it, whatever it may be said to be".

This means that, the so-called "evolution" could be considered the processes by which God molds and shapes things, and that the impression could be given to people now and looking back that this occurred over some long period, whereas for God it could have been moved or appeared at any speed God willed for it. This is so that you don't live at odds with these things necessarily, but instead put them aside, choosing instead to focus on God and leaving it at "whatever God has done and however God may have done it, the point is that God has done it in my view".

Furthermore that "What God has promised, God can easily un-do, so that we live in fear of God, and all our hope rests in God"

and finally "I do not know how these verses are to be interpreted or imagined, or if they are to be imagined at all, as I was not present for these things, and I do not know if God makes figures to appear and represent God or are moving as controlled representatives of God, but God can not be encompassed entirely by any such form or body, as God can not be encompassed or held in any structure or limited place, but is greater and encompasses all that and has no limits or borders really".

Wouldn't that in every case be a better view or way of thinking and speaking about each thing? Wouldn't it bring one closer to a Greater seeming notion regarding God and using careful speech to avoid error or blasphemies?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Creation story is symbolic

From Adam to end of dispensation of the seal of Prophets were 6000 years.
آدم الی خاتم

Symbolically represented as 6 days of creation, each day is a 1000 years. Meaning creation of human civilization.
Muhammad was the last prophet of this cycle, known as adamic cycle. After this 6000 years, the end of world was to come. Meaning the end of an older world, and beginning of a new world. In the Quran, it is referred as new creation. It starts by the advant of the Qaim or the Mahdi of Islam.

Please be kind enough to open a new thread to discuss the Bahai theology. Its just a request since its not relevant to this thread whatsoever. Yet, its your prerogative I suppose.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Why do some of the atheists and theists believe that theism is by default against evolution? There are some atheists that insist a theist must be anti-evolution. Its almost blasphemous for a theist to speak about evolution. Sometimes it is almost a religious, dogmatic, 'this is mine, not yours" kind of argument. Why is that?

In the past there have been many theists who propagated and taught evolution. There have also been many who didnt know about the evolutionary thoughts. So they are not against evolution but are theists themselves. Thus, is it an educated assumption or just a dismissal? Or is it something else?

Even some theists think that theists by default are against evolution. Whats strange is that they dont seem to know or believe there were any theists in the past who even spoke of evolution. Well, that's wrong.

Why?
I have one reason as to why they might think that. It is due to ignorance. Some people automatically have this idea below as being true.....

1. Theism = religious = anti evolution

and

2. Atheism = non religious = evolution
 
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