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Featured Theism. Is it by default anti-evolution?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Nov 6, 2020.

?
  1. Yes

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  2. No

    38 vote(s)
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  3. Something else that I will explain

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  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Why do some of the atheists and theists believe that theism is by default against evolution? There are some atheists that insist a theist must be anti-evolution. Its almost blasphemous for a theist to speak about evolution. Sometimes it is almost a religious, dogmatic, 'this is mine, not yours" kind of argument. Why is that?

    In the past there have been many theists who propagated and taught evolution. There have also been many who didnt know about the evolutionary thoughts. So they are not against evolution but are theists themselves. Thus, is it an educated assumption or just a dismissal? Or is it something else?

    Even some theists think that theists by default are against evolution. Whats strange is that they dont seem to know or believe there were any theists in the past who even spoke of evolution. Well, that's wrong.

    Why?
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    I can't think of a reason why being a theist would lead to such a conclusion by itself.
     
  3. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Theism "by default" isn't anti-evolution. There's nothing in merely believing that gods exist that implies anything at all about evolution (or about anything else, for that matter).

    That being said, some very popular mainstream religions are anti-evolution, even if they aren't flat-out creationist.
     
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  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    The first person who taught me that Biblical Creation is a myth was my Catholic priest...go figure;)
     
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  5. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    As far as I've encountered, the way to counter this issue is by saying to a person who thinks that you don't believe in evolution, that you believe in evolution. The modern (often pig-headed or belligerent) militant atheists, are suggesting through their version of evolution that things happened the way they did because of chance and other factors, and that at no point was there any magical (to them) seeming event where anything was consciously involved in generating life, or cellular life, or behind the various opportunistic and conditional decisions and events which occurred that led to every stage of life and evolution and development and mutations and all that.

    So, with this model in mind, they can not believe or accept the proposition as identical which would say God or a God had any part in any stage of it at all.

    So that is probably where the issue is, but honestly, I don't know who you have been talking to. I simply say to people "I believe in God, I believe in evolution" and that seems good enough and never becomes an issue really as far as I've experienced online (and it would likely go down even smoother in real life).

    My version of evolution though, is mainly entirely the same as whatever is accepted by science, with the only extra portion being that I believe God (a non-bodily powerful intelligence responsible for generating all experiences and reality) is behind everything whatsoever which occurs, so all the decisions and actions and movements and results of cells, creatures, animals, mating, death, whatever else happens or is said to have happened at any time, it is "All from God" and "By God".

    It really, ultimately, has nothing to do with particular sciences for the most part, whatever is said to be true and proven, it makes little difference overall, as no matter what may be true or said, it is what I call God that is responsible for it.

    God was linked with the discussion of evolution by people who take the stories of the Bible in a very specific literal fashion which then puts it at odds with the story that the theory of evolution tells about gradual development and change through strages and "natural selection" events and whatever, because they don't even believe in an underlying God responsible for everything quite often, they believe in an apparently Cartoon God that spontaneously generates, or through quick figurine and balloon animal making, produces things literally like that only, and that there is no natural selection, and evolution never happened, and that their scriptures are not symbolic really, but entirely, strictly, as literal as their cartoonish imaginations make it to be. I'm pretty sure they are the ones being stubborn and unreasonable most of the time, so are the true brothers of their enemies, the pig-headed belligerent militant atheists, they should get a room together, as they say! They often do, and hold irritating debates that I almost called Rebates just now.
     
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  6. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Or worse, Flat-Earth Creationist.
     
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  7. ratiocinator

    ratiocinator Lightly seared on the reality grill.

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    Are there? That's rather strange; can't say that I've encountered any myself.

    I've seen theists arguing that evolution is atheist or anti-god or against their religion, but even they must realise that many (if not most) theists accept it.
     
  8. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    I have no idea.
    There are more then enough theists, the majority actually, who have no problems with evolution at all.

    So the idea that theists are "by default" against evolution is obviously, factually, verifiably, demonstrably incorrect.

    There are? Who are these people?
    Not saying they don't exist off course. I just don't know any.


    Is it? I had no idea. It's a strange concept though, considering how the majority (if memory serves me right) of evolutionary biologists are actually theists...


    No idea. I'm not even aware of any such argument, actually.

    Not just the past. The present also. And undoubtedly also in the future. There are more then enough world renown evolutionary biologists and alike... People like Ken Miller, Francis Collins, etc.

    Heck, the catholic pope, and along with him a billion catholics, have no qualms with science.


    No idea what you are trying to ask here, tbh. If you don't know about evolution, why would you believe it?
    Kind of hard to believe something that is completely unknown to you...
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I think some are because they don't understand what it is. A lot of times they feel they are actually literally "descendent from monkeys." In other words, your basically telling them they were monkeys (or aps or whatever). I've read a few, though, who believed god started the evolution. So, I guess that's trying to justify to oneself that they can believe in science and creationism at the same time to resolve the divide (like people do when they find it hard to pick a side as if picking one side all of the sudden excludes them from the other).

    But mostly ignorance, I noticed. Nothing much more.
     
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  10. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Maybe we can get some here or invite some here who can present their belief or case that evolution and theism are necessarily incompatible and can not be made compatible at all. I have not met anyone like that, but I assume they probably exist (since I assume that evolution has brought into this world a great many varieties of idiotic people carrying idiotic ideas stubbornly, and I don't feel that they deserve any respect or are much of a threat, so long as their numbers remain insignificant and their force or distribution of their ideas remains a trickle or weak).

    If they become a threat (and even before they do, as this opportunity presents itself) they should be "talked down" until their voices and ideas are muted and stamped down so much that they can't lift a finger without being considered worthless fools (by definition, to oppress them).

    It is this resistance to the oppression perceived by people who are outside of the scientific community, that likes makes them try to rise up and vocalize their resistance for example. Many people might even view things like the Flat-Earth insistence as a Resistance Movement and Human Rights Movement (Wackos Unite!).

    If we are asked to "respect every idea as equal" oh boy, what a cumbersome mess that would be. No, a great many ideas DO NOT (in my radical opinion) deserve ANY respect or much time, because they are just purely foolish and easily proven wrong.

    Currently, there are people saying "5G data spreads the human virus through the internet wi fi type waves" and, it might seem funny, but these people very often are not actually kidding, and they view attempts at trying to educate them as "you are a science zombie, you have been tricked by the Powers That Be", and this sort of (apparently severe mental issue) has become increasingly widespread, with more and more opportunities to perpetuate these ideas and infect others with them as well.

    If it becomes the "mainstream" somehow to be so totally idiotic (seeming to me), the world is very unlikely to become a "better place", it is practically "Paganism" when "Pagan" was used by some as a term to refer to the belligerent and dopey rabble who could not be reasoned with due to being so disturbingly out of touch with norms and common sense or reason. Actually, I've met a few people calling themselves things like that, and they have been pretty belligerent and closed minded too, but I just thought of that as some kind of Post-Fundamentalist Christian rebellion and anger with their parents or something while basically just being identical to every other fantasist cartoony believer out there.
     
  11. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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    Looks like there seems to be a consensus here of not encountering these people who strictly reject the possibility of any compromise or cooperation with Theism (the belief in God or Gods) and the theory of evolution or agreement with modern and accepted science, biology, medicine, and medical science, except from apparently the side of extremists and literalist people (who have quite often been Christians of a sort, but now Muslims have been following in their footsteps rather recently as well and I saw a few denying evolution in a manner similar to the Christians, all of which is really unnecessary to do for Muslims as there is no conflict with Islam and Evolution, but some Muslims are hell-bent on imitating Christians and making Islam look like the other religions or quite frankly even worse than it does. They also fuss about the "Free Will" and "Omnibenevolence" issues that Christians have, which are not even Islamic concerns if one reads the Qur'an, but the Beardos make it an issue sometimes these days, following their foolish seeming brethren straight to Nowheresville.).
     
  12. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    The problem lies with people believing that literal interpretation of scripture is a prerequisite for belief in god.
     
  13. Rival

    Rival Veteran Member
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    What if they have no scripture?
     
  14. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Abnormal before it was fashionable
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    Aye, evolution could be just one of Cthulhu's many tools.
     
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  15. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Then they most likely wouldn't have anything to conflict with ToE, thus no basis for objection?
     
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  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    There were already Theists believing in evolution when Atheists did not even exist
     
  17. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    The same is true for me. I was first taught about evolution by a nun who obviously loved science. And later a priest explained the biblical stories as mythology. Not to be presumed historical fact.

    Most theist are not creationists. Most Christians are not creationists.
     
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  18. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    It's like saying apples are anti-oranges.
     
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  19. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Theists aren't by default against evolution but
    Theism (the belief in a personal, magically intervening god) is incompatible with science (the belief that there is no magic).
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It seems to be more an attack on the Bible more than an attack on theism in general. To some atheists if science does not match the Young Earth Creationist way of interpreting Genesis then the Bible is wrong. Maybe it is just another way to justify not believing in God.
     
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