Altfish
Veteran Member
- a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g. faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ).
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Theism Doesn't Ultimately Explain Anything
- Thread starter Meow Mix
- Start date
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
I understand that idea that it just kicks the can farther up the road, but in reality, the human soul can find a lot more satisfaction concept of forever worshiping a perfect being then living in the universe that exists for no reason and no purpose.
Humans seem to be inherently self-destructive, and need a reason to exist bigger than themselves... Just ask alcoholics anonymous.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Very good.
PureX
Veteran Member
I agree. It's just another story. But it's not based on science. It's based on science fiction. And it's important to recognize and understand the difference. Just as it's important to recognize and understand mythological content of religious stories,
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Altfish
Veteran Member
It is not science fiction. It is a hypothesis.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Although to me it does explain things; I don't see why it has to in order to be true.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Why does anything exist rather than nothing? People exist because God knows what parents know. Children make life Grand. Yes, Eternity has purpose.
So much is said about God that simply isn't true. People spread their beliefs about God without taking the effort to Discover the Real Truth.
Religions teach people to value Beliefs above all else yet shouldn't Real Truth and Knowledge always be more important than a box of Beliefs?
Beliefs are passed down as truth generation upon generation but who searches for the Truth? All those beliefs reflect mankind more than anything else. It's no wonder it all doesn't add up. It isn't real. It's Beliefs!!
Ok, having something and having children is better than nothing so why does the universe and our world exist??
People think like people. Things are done for oneself. They do not understand God at all. It has never ever been about Believing. God is Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. The universe and this world does not exist for God. It exists for US!!. The time-based causal nature of the universe is Perfect for Learning. WE are Living our Lessons. It's that simple.
Free will is an important part of learning. If our choices are not free choices, we will pick the choices denied us as soon as we are free. God will never tell you what to do, or what and how to choose. God will not intimidate or coerce your choices. God grants total freedom of choice and total freedom of speech. If anyone is telling you what to do or choose, It's not God!!
There is much to learn. This could never be done in one lifetime. There will be many many lifetimes.
Adversity breeds invention. So often it's adversity that leads the way to Discovery, Learning and Growing. On the other hand, people tend to take adversity personally. In time, learning will become impossible. That is why death exists. God will show each of us that it has never ever been about punishment, condemning or hate.
Eternity is an awful long time. What are you going to do? Eternity must have purpose or everything dries up.
WE will all learn and grow through the lifetimes. Each will be it all and do it all. At some point one acquires enough wisdom and knowledge that the physical body trapped withing the physical laws of this universe will no longer be needed. So what does one do when one learns it all? Yes, eternity has purpose. There is always more to do. One can Teach.
God has placed knowledge around us all. It waits to be Discovered. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? It was there all along waiting to be Discovered.
I say be who you must! It's a part of the plan! Listen to the advice of others but walk your own path. Life's lessons are best learned that way.
The Mosaic that is all of us meshes together in such a way to lead us all forward. Instead of controlling or attempting to rule others, we can share the knowledge each has acquired and allow that free choice.
Through all the lessons and learning, everyone makes it regardless of the choices. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices. There has never been a need to hate or condemn. There is only the need to Help, Teach, Learn, and Love each other Unconditionally.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That pale blue dot.
The real 'God' is out there right in front of all of us. The universe itself, for which God is a placeholder term, a metaphor , and not something literal manifesting out of one's head.
When you really think about it, the universe is so freaky and bizarre, you really don't need nor require any God whatsoever.
It just is.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
nothing can’t exist, it is impossible, that is what nothing is (isn’t). The purpose of life is to be alive, and to seek happiness.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
why questions are ultimately meaningless until we know that there is a because, at least in principle. Namely a purpose, or a teleology, of any kind. Pending some evidence of that teleological value for the existing, they are therefore question begging and a loss of time.
a bit like asking: why is Mount Pilatus near Lucerne and not in New Jersey? An answer to that (as opposed to how questions) would lead us astray; toward some mountains distribution agency that decided that Pilatus is more appropriate in Switzerland than in New Jersey. For some teleological reason. A completely useless answer on account of a false premise.
It must have been a bit like what my ancestors thought: why do thunderstorm hit here and not there? Must be Thor, desiring it so. Maybe is angry with us, or whatever.
modern philosophers asking why questions are like the vikings. They use more important sounding words, ontologies and epistemologies, and stuff like that , but the basic premise, and therefore the reliability of the answers, is exactly the same.
ciao
- viole
I understand from your posts that you are a professional scientist. Do you consider yourself a philosopher as well, if not necessarily a professional one? I would love to know how you view the relationship between science and philosophy.
PureX
Veteran Member
I agree. "God" is a human conceptualization of the 'great mystery of being'. Some think of it as a person. Some think of it as a force. Some think of it as the mere physicality of what is. Then we argue about it.
But none of us knows. Even though many of us 'believe' that we're right however we conceptualize it. Because we 'need to believe'. We need to be right. So we can feel in control. And not so vulnerable.
This is a very honest admission. Should we not resist succumbing to our fears of vulnerability and lack of control? Is there not a danger to making things up just to ease our anxiety?
PureX
Veteran Member
The danger is ever-present, regardless. Many of us cannot cope with the realization of this existential danger (lack of knowledge/control) without some kind of idealization to hope in. To act on. And to move towards. Living a giant, perpetual mystery is not a fate most of us are willing to endure.
So are our hopeful delusions bad?
They can be. But so can the alternative. That is hopelessness. Pathological vulnerability. Perpetual unknowing and ignorance. A lot of people need their gods and their religions to stay alive, and to stay sane and functional in the face of these alternatives. Few atheists seem to understand this. And I think it's because they have made their atheism a religion without a deity. I call it "scientism". Some mythologized version of science has replaced the position of "God" in their mind, and is now providing them with pretty much the same sense of hope and control that the traditional "God" ideal has done for the religionists. The two camps are really just mirror images of each other, conceptually speaking. And you can see it all the time on these threads if you're looking for it.
The truth is that delusions are all we humans have, because we do not have "the truth". The truth of 'what is'. And we probably never will.
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I find this an interesting question. Clearly, many of those those who are non-religious do not see their position as hopeless and pathologically vulnerable, and yet you and others do see it that way. So what causes this difference? Our emotional and psychological states are the complex product of biology and environment. Most religious people were indoctrinated and socialized in religious belief from birth. If everyone was indoctrinated and socialized in a non-religious world view, I wonder what percentage would still create or make up supernatural explanations? Might such fears of the unknown only persist in a small segment of the population, much like any other phobia?
If this is the case, would it not be better to strive for a society that is less phobic and can deal with reality as it is, happy with our limited, yet ever increasing understanding of the cosmos and ourselves?
I would say that being hopeful is good and delusions are always bad, hopeful or otherwise. We should strive to eliminate delusions.
PureX
Veteran Member
People will keep what works for them, and reject what doesn't. Naturally. If most people keep the theism they were handed growing up, it's because it's working for them in some capacity. Most atheists refuse to acknowledge this because they are biased by their own presumed lack of a need for it. And yet most of them rely on 'scientism' in very much the same way theists rely on their gods. They are not nearly so free from delusion as they think they are.
People are what they are, wrong and crazy as that may be. Who are you or I to tell all humanity how to be human? What do we think we know that so many millions of others do not? Everyone is reasoning in ignorance, like blind men. Even us. Each imagining the environment in our own way, according to our own blind encounters with it. The best we could do, I would think, would be to share all our imagined impressions with each other, and adopt those that seem to work best for ourselves (but as a collective, cooperative species). Is that theism? Is that atheism? Is that agnosticism? Or is that some holistic vision that allows for them all? (Philosophical Taoism, in my opinion, does this.)
All we have are delusions. There is no eliminating them. Understanding this is the only way 'through'.
1.
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.
Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
2.
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.
Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.
Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.
Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding. - from the Tao Te Ching
I agree that facing and embracing our unknowing is the superior way to deal with it. But I also recognize that this in not the way of most humans. And as I am a member of this human collective, I must humbly accept this fact for what it is.The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.
Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
2.
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.
Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.
Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.
Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding. - from the Tao Te Ching
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In Hinduism God (Brahman)is primarily defined as the foundation of subjective experiencing, that there is something like to experience at all. Brahman is also the foundation from which causal reality (physical world with forces, fields, particles) , structures ( math, logical relations) and knowledge (information) emanate. Thus Brahman explains why such apparently different things (like abstract math, bits of information, physical matter) are all inter-dependently present in the reality we cognise... for at the base they are aspects of the same ultimate reality.. along with subjective awareness.
You can decide if that makes sense or not.
As I have observed before, we seem to find much to agree about, it just seems that I am more of a glass half-full guy and you seem to be a glass half-empty guy.
I agree with your sentiment above with the following caveat: Is the fact that most humans don't or can't embrace our unknowing a result of their being taught, conditioned, indoctrinated to not embrace our unknowing, and if so, is it not appropriate to work to reverse this influence or bias towards not embracing our unknowing, if the latter is the superior attitude? You seem to argue that one must accept the status quo even if there is a better alternative.
This statement is quite hyperbolic and untrue. Even in common non-technical usage of the term 'delusion', this is strong language, and to say that it is all we have, that we have no grasp or concept of reality or parts of reality I consider completely false. I fully agree that human beings can be self-deceptive, be heavily influenced by confirmation bias, etc, but that all is illusion or delusion is an extreme and indefensible position.
"People will keep what works for them, and reject what doesn't. Naturally. If most people keep the theism they were handed growing up, it's because it's working for them in some capacity."
- This statement is true about all aspects of life and human endeavor. However, one must also "get out of the moment" and look at the big picture. Where is society heading, where do we want to be? Go back 1,000 years and see the society that was working for humanity at that time. Should we, humanity, have remained unchanged and constant in that state that was working "at the time"? That theism is working for some does not mean there is not a better alternative. I choose striving for improvement and not stagnation.
"Most atheists refuse to acknowledge this because they are biased by their own presumed lack of a need for it. And yet most of them rely on 'scientism' in very much the same way theists rely on their gods. They are not nearly so free from delusion as they think they are."
- Yes, we are all flawed and fallible human beings, vulnerable to bias. I would change your use of 'delusion' in that last sentence to 'bias'. That being said, 'scientism' isn't a thing. It is a weak attempt to cast science and the knowledge gained through science on the same unstable ground as religious belief. Science, the scientific process, is our best and only proven method for gaining reliable knowledge about reality. It has built-in mechanisms to counter and mitigate all the human failings and biases you and I have been discussing.
"People are what they are, wrong and crazy as that may be."
- yes, but that does not mean we give up, that we stop trying to improve.
"Who are you or I to tell all humanity how to be human? "
- I would argue that part of being human is telling other humans how to be. People have been doing it for millennia. If we don't share what we are thinking, nothing will change, improve.
"Everyone is reasoning in ignorance, like blind men. Even us."
- Again, hyperbolic and not true. We are all reasoning in partial ignorance. And all are not reasoning at the same level of ignorance. You fail to appreciate the incremental gain of valid, accumulated knowledge over time. Humanity's base level of understanding of reality today is far superior to that of humanity 20,000 years ago. If you disagree, you are willfully living in denial. We are collectively not as ignorant as we were, and will not be as ignorant in the future as we are today.
"Each imagining the environment in our own way, according to our own blind encounters with it. The best we could do, I would think, would be to share all our imagined impressions with each other, and adopt those that seem to work best for ourselves (but as a collective, cooperative species). Is that theism? Is that atheism? Is that agnosticism? Or is that some holistic vision that allows for them all?"
- The problem with this approach is that there is no mechanism to discard ideas that are clearly wrong and conflict with know reality. Further, it is great to hypothesize, guess, postulate, estimate, imagine about those things for which we have insufficient information on which to draw a sound conclusion, but we must not insist that they are true or insist others act or behave in away that assumes they are true. No, the best approach is to ground our social systems in what is known of reality and adapt and improve our social systems as our understanding of reality grows.