The YECs' Dilemma

[TagliatelliMonster]

(who knows who is right)

More then likely, the one who's case is supported by objective evidence while requiring the least assumptions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What is time at the speed of light? At what speed is the universe expanding?

This is a miscomprehension.
You are confusing "traveling through space" with space itself expanding.
They are not the same thing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There goes your science.

In human genetics, the Mitochondrial Eve (also mt-Eve, mt-MRCA) is the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all living humans. In other words, she is defined as the most recent woman from whom all living humans descend in an unbroken line purely through their mothers and through the mothers of those mothers, back until all lines converge on one woman.

You should read the articles you are quoting:

The name "Mitochondrial Eve" alludes to the biblical Eve, which has led to repeated misrepresentations or misconceptions in journalistic accounts on the topic. Popular science presentations of the topic usually point out such possible misconceptions by emphasizing the fact that the position of mt-MRCA is neither fixed in time (as the position of mt-MRCA moves forward in time as mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages become extinct), nor does it refer to a "first woman", nor the only living female of her time, nor the first member of a "new species".[note 4]

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Sorry, I am not computing your first question. Why what took so long... a day?
The second question is simple to answer, if you have time for an explanation.
I'll give the answer in a pea-shell.
God has a purpose which he started to carry out in the Genesis. A purpose involves a process - requiring time. Hence, the periods of time, including where God rested, as in allowing time for that purpose to come to realization. Rather than, "Oh. I'm so tired.

You didn't address why an omnipotent deity would need six days to do anything, why the story has it taking six days, or why the story includes a day of rest, which is what I was asking about.

My suggestion is that the concept of the work week complete with weekend was added to the creation narrative for a specific, practical purpose. Other creation stories I've seen don't include a timeline. Here are a couple:

"The mighty Marduk took his club and split Tiamat’s body in half. He placed half of her body in the sky and made the heavens (space). He created the moon to guard the heavens, and set it moving back and forth, on endless (time) patrol (energy). With the other half of Tiamat's body he made the land.(matter) "
or

"Odin, Vili, and Vé killed the giant Ymir. The sons of Bor then ... made the world (matter) from him. From his blood they made the sea and the lakes; from his flesh the earth; from his hair the trees; and from his bones the mountains. They made rocks and pebbles from his teeth and jaws and those bones that were broken. Maggots appeared in Ymir's flesh and came to life (life). By the decree of the gods they acquired human understanding and the appearance of men"

Why would an omnipotent deity need six days to build the world, or a day of rest? Doesn't that make him seem less than omnipotent, constrained by limitations needing overcoming and taking time to do it?

This says to me that there was a transformation from a time when able-bodied people worked every day to a time when a centralized temple and an established priesthood needing to be supported by the community arose. Once, no doubt, all able-bodied people worked every day, certainly before settling into cities. And religion was administered by shamans or rabbis wandering with the tribe.

Then came civilization and specialization, and large settlements with a permanent synagogue. People needed to travel to get to the rabbis, who needed tithes to live on - no doubt several hours in each direction. They als needed time for the religious services. This necessitated a regular day off. Somehow, it was agreed upon that this should be every seventh day. Natural cycles like days, months, and years were too short or long. So this new artificial cycle was created.

A new work ethic was necessary to accommodate the need for people to travel to and from a temple and stay for services, and it when once it was unacceptable to take a day off for anything less than illness, it was necessary to make the opposite true: It's a sin to NOT do that. This is no doubt the origin of the timetable and the inclusion of the day of rest in the creation story. If God did it, it's not only moral to take the day off, it's immoral not to. It got a Commandment in the top ten.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"impossible to create an entire species out of only two individuals" means what?
That the human species could not possibly come from a male and female. Correct?

That you can't create a species from a single breeding pair.

According to the article, is that statement true, or false?

Dear me. It's almost like you don't understand at all that:

1. mitochondrial eve is the lineage to where mitochondrial dna of all humans can be traced back
2. that mitochondrial dna is inherited from mothers
3. that humans have fathers too.

Maybe a drawing will help you understand.

The colors represent mitochondrial DNA.
Sarah, Eve and Jenny are female peers. Each have some children.

Sarah's daughter Debby dies at the age of 10 and has no kids.
Jenny has a son Tom.
Eve has 2 daughters.

Andrew, son of Sarah, has a bunch of kids with Jessica, daughter of Eve.
These kids all have Eve's mitochondrial DNA.
Yet both eve and sarah are their grandmothers.

Tom, son of Jenny, has a bunch of kids with Julia, daughter of Eve.
These kids all have Eve's mitochondrial DNA.
Yet both eve and jenny are their grandmothers.

The genes of Sarah and Jenny live on in those kids. Their mitochondrial DNA doesn't.
The lineages of the mitochondrial DNA died off. But they remain ancestors.
Eve is not the ONLY mother of humanity.

 

[ppp]

"impossible to create an entire species out of only two individuals" means what?
That the human species could not possibly come from a male and female. Correct?
According to the article, is that statement true, or false?

It means that at no point was there only one human male and one human female.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Genesis 2:4 uses the word 'yom'. So if YECs believe that day means 'a 24 hour day', that would mean that God created the heavens and the earth, in literally 24 hours, according to their reckoning.
Any YECs would like to explain that?

An omnipotent God could create the universe in 24 seconds, much less 24 hours.

 

[viole]

the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all living humans. In other words, she is defined as the most recent woman from whom all living humans descend in an unbroken line purely through their mothers and through the mothers of those mothers, back until all lines converge on one woman.

Yes, but she was not the only woman around. She had a mother, for instance. And a grand mother, and so on. By the way, do you think this Eve had a soul while her mother didn’t? Hope not. Imagine her disappointment when looking for mom in heaven.

Ciao

- viole

 

[KWED]

Genesis 2:4 uses the word 'yom'. So if YECs believe that day means 'a 24 hour day', that would mean that God created the heavens and the earth, in literally 24 hours, according to their reckoning.
Any YECs would like to explain that?

He's god. He can do anything.

 

[Kenny]

This is a miscomprehension.
You are confusing "traveling through space" with space itself expanding.
They are not the same thing.

Not really... more along that lines that it was expressed poorly. My apologies.

 

[1213]

Genesis 2:4 uses the word 'yom'. So if YECs believe that day means 'a 24 hour day', that would mean that God created the heavens and the earth, in literally 24 hours, according to their reckoning.
Any YECs would like to explain that?

What is there to be explained?

 

[exchemist]

This question has been asked many times, and has been answered numerous times on these forums.

How do we know if anything is true? Don't we test it? Don't we investigate if it is or not?
Does that mean everyone will reach the same conclusion?
No. There will be believers, and unbelievers.

I have already presented the reasons why we can trust the Bible as a reliable source of truth. If you are interested in that, I discussed some of those reasons in a number of threads. One of them is here.
Don't recall seing you though.

No indeed. If the historical accuracy of the bible is what convinces you, you must have a rather, um, idiosyncratic appreciation of the relevant history .

 

[Colt]

Genesis 2:4 uses the word 'yom'. So if YECs believe that day means 'a 24 hour day', that would mean that God created the heavens and the earth, in literally 24 hours, according to their reckoning.
Any YECs would like to explain that?

Genesis is speculation and conjecture by Israelites who were constructing a comprehensive story of origins of the Jewish people and for consumption by a Jewish audience. In doing so the Hebrew authors of the OT appropriated elements of Mesopotamian lore in constructing an authoritative line of descent all the way back to Adam whom they assumed was the first man therefore God must have been created shortly before creating Adam. Existing creation account(s) were merged into one.

In response to the devastating pressure and demand for answers by the scattered Israelites after the fall of the first Temple and subsequent bondage, the elite priest class went to the other extreme in converting an ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

With faith, there is no need for explanations.

Yeah, that works for us all with some limitations of us all. That is not unique to standard religion.

 

[Sheldon]

back until all lines converge on one woman Oh my head.

Good grief, you're one person, does that make you the first ever person? It's not that hard...

 

[Sheldon]

(Genesis 1:1, 2) 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters.

Now use your head.
The narrator did not include the creation of the heavens.
The Bible speaks of heavens- where God dwells; where the heavenly bodies reside; earth's atmosphere.
Obviously the earth is one of the heavenly bodies, like the other planets.
So the narrator takes up from after these bodies exist - the earth being one of those formless and covered with water.

Should be easy to follow from there.... Should be.

You'd like to think so.

 

[Sheldon]

An omnipotent God could create the universe in 24 seconds, much less 24 hours.

Yet can't get any closer to 13.4 billion years, than 6 days, in it's explanation, and even more perplexing, it needed a day to rest at the end, even though it had limitless power?

 

[Suave]

Never mind that, if the universe is just a few thousand years old, as YEC's claim, then how can we observe the light from stars hundreds of millions of light years away? Did a deity create the light en route?

I realize our universe might very well be simulated, but that does not mean the simulator ( a.k.a - God ) is so deceptive as to make the simulated universe appear to be older than it's actual simulated age.

 

[nPeace]

The name "Mitochondrial Eve" alludes to the biblical Eve, which has led to repeated misrepresentations or misconceptions in journalistic accounts on the topic. Popular science presentations of the topic usually point out such possible misconceptions by emphasizing the fact that the position of mt-MRCA is neither fixed in time (as the position of mt-MRCA moves forward in time as mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages become extinct), nor does it refer to a "first woman", nor the only living female of her time, nor the first member of a "new species".[note 4]

That's from the article and it does present the idea that it's indeed false. It simply means that all (female) humans have a one precise female ancestor in common between them; and the same thing for men, but these two need not have been related or ever meeting in their lives. It's perfectly possible for all modern people to have distant ancestor in common; it does not follow that humanity started from a single pair of individual that reproduced between them to create all of humanity; that's not supported neither by the article neither by genetics.

See that's what MtDNA Eve is; not the first, the common female ancestor to all other living women, not the first nor the only one and who knows for the men. We know who is the common male ancestor for all men, but they didn't meet.

So the article is written correctly, and I misunderstood it? Or the article is badly written, and I need some more explanation to understand?
"all lines converge on one woman" means what? One woman out of several women?

Either way, your diagram fits the Biblical diagram. Genesis 9:1
So fight as you might, you can't win. You'll have to make up something.

 

[nPeace]

It doesnt only say yom, it also explains the day that's spoken in it. It is a normal day with sun rise, and sun set, and every day is explained that way. Its not just the word yom you have to consider.

So you didn't get it the last time. Then a repeat won't help. You'll likely roll back again some time down the line.