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Featured The wrath of God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by InChrist, Feb 23, 2019.

  1. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    What makes you think God was responsible for the temptation in Islam?

    Nevertheless I suppose if you care to "lay responsibility on God" you could say he did give man capability to do wrong. That was the point in creating man. But clearly you don't believe in the Abrahamic God, do you? So your arguments are strange. You can't jump from religion to religion, sect to sect, scripture to scripture and adjust your opinions as evet in convenient in each case. Or you can, pardon me, but what's the point? More over, what is the point on anyone engaging you in such an argument? It bears no fruit so to speak.
     
  2. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Because being an All Powerful sentient being makes you responsible for about everything.
    Tom
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    God is responsible for the nature of fallible humans and the weakness of temptation regardless of which theist religion you choose.
    I do not believe that the point of God was 'creating humans' capable of doing wrong. God created human in the of God attributes including human will. Part of the problem is you are trying too hard to define what these attributes are or are not.

    I believe in the Abrahamic God, but not the ancient views of the Abrahamic God in Judaism and in particularly Christianity. Since the direction of this thread is the Christian view I am dealing with that. The view of Islam concerning Adam and Eve and the 'Original Sin(?) is far more complex, and differs between the different divisions of Islam.

    Since I am dealing specifically with the Christian, and to a certain extent the Jewish view your responses have muddled the discussion. The issue of the 'Wrath of God' in the context originally proposed in this thread is how God is portrayed in the Bible.

    You have failed to present your view (Which one of the Islamic views?) in the discussion you have created the confusion. To a certain degree the Baha'i Faith would agree with the Islamic view that 'Adam' was a prophet, but beyond that the variable beliefs in Islam make the issue uncertain, and represent interpretations of the Genesis scripture and not the literal scripture itself.

    The related issue is how the concept of evil is believed, and related to Adam and Eve, the 'Fall' and the resulting 'Original Sin,' and also how Christianity views as the purpose of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Many Christians believe the 'Fall' and 'Original Sin;' represent the temptation of Adam and Eve succumbing to the 'Evil' forces of Satan and/or the Devil. This view is reinforced in the New Testament as the conflict between the forces of good and evil, as found in the Book of Revelation.

    The related Baha'i view of evil is relevant here:

    From: How Do You Define Evil?

    "Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence… In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth… – Some Answered Questions, p. 263.

    …all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life… all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent. – ibid, p. 263."
     
    #103 shunyadragon, Feb 25, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  4. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Are you suggesting that when someone who is severely mentally handicapped (or so we presume?) smears their own **** on walls, perhaps it might actually be a deep, complex form of communication we're simply not grasping because it's beyond our understanding?.
     
  5. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    I don't think it's communication necessarily but I do think it is beyond your understanding. Since you use it as an example
     
  6. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    The great Jehovah smackdown, on WWE?
     
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  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    The solid gold girdle goes to the winner.
     
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  8. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    No, I have read all the passages used by skeptics who pull them out of context to make accusations against God's character. When this is done it speaks loud and clear that those who do so have no understanding of the history, culture (s), what is taking place at the time, why such accounts are even specifically included and preserved in the scriptures, or what God's eternal purpose is about. It is obvious that anyone who misuses the scriptures in this way has no desire or intention of knowing the truth, what was going on with the people at the time, or God at all.
     
  9. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    If God is Almighty, which, I believe God is, then a creature attempting to make suggestions or imply that such God doesn't know what He's doing is extremely arrogant.

    The fact that God made humans in His image does not mean humans are perfect beings... as is God. Logically, that could never be since there is only One unique God, One unique Almighty Creator, Spirit, so any creature, is less than this God Being. Made in the image of God, means God gave humans the attributes and ability to reflect His love, righteousness, purity, etc. and the capacity to make the choice to freely do so.

    What does it mean that humanity is made in the image of God (imago dei)?
     
  10. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    What does it mean?

    It means realizing that He does not know what He is doing.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  11. ManSinha

    ManSinha Active Member

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    That is an interesting analogy - sorry I am getting to it somewhat late in the discussion - BUT if god is perfect - would there not have been parameters or guard rails for said AI? When things get out of control - eg when Eve moves towards the apple - for there to be a decision support warning?

    Humor aside - that argument sadly falls on its face

    IF the creator is perfect - then why the imperfections? Yes some evil and sufferings exist because certain individuals make poor choices - BUT what about those that are born mentally retarded? Or go on to develop Multiple Sclerosis or simply get cancer? Are we to presume that they are all sinners that are being punished for their sins? What of babies born with genetic abnormalities? What sin did they commit? to quote @viole
     
  12. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Except, again, it was not murder. The scriptures state it was judgment and righteous judgment by a righteous God who always judges correctly.
    Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Genesis 18:25 The answer displayed throughout the passage and conversation between Abraham and God is YES, the Judge of all the earth does right.

    God has chosen by designing humans in His image to give them FREEDOM. This attribute and capacity appears to be very important to God to the point that He will not violate human freedom to force someone to change against their will because Love must include freedom. His desire is to call out people from this temporary world who want an eternal life of real love and freedom.
     
  13. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Or, more likely you have no clue what God is doing and don't care to find out.
     
  14. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Jesus referred to the flood of Noah and He was not talking about some Babylonian story of gods annoyed by noise.

    Why do you call yourself a Christian if you deny Jesus' words?
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Yes. What would you expect? Jesus was a Jew and he believed what he'd been taught. I'm not denying Jesus words.. I am saying the global flood was a myth from Sumer that predates Genesis by a thousand years and there is ample evidence of that.

    Your faith should not be shattered if you appreciate the stories as didactic literature. :Look beyond the fairy tale to its meaning.
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    This closing part of a prayer by the Bab indicates to me what we are to fear of God;

    "....Indeed shouldst Thou desire to confer blessing upon a servant Thou wouldst blot out from the realm of his heart every mention or disposition except Thine Own mention; and shouldst Thou ordain evil for a servant by reason of that which his hands have unjustly wrought before Thy face, Thou wouldst test him with the benefits of this world and of the next that he might become preoccupied therewith and forget Thy remembrance...."

    The fear to e left to oneself, not mindful of God.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The opposite of 'skeptical' is very often 'gullible'.

    There is nothing 'out of context' in pointing to the God of the bible commanding invasive wars. The only fault alleged against those invaded is that they belonged to another tribe and therefore had their own tribal god. (It will not have escaped your notice that Yahweh began as a tribal god, making [his] covenant only with the one tribe.)

    There is nothing 'out of context' in citing the occasions in the Tanakh where Yahweh is the instigator of human sacrifices, leading to two last-minute reprieves (Isaac, Jonah) and eight completed sacrifices (Jephthah's daughter, the seven sons of Saul). The NT is one long glorification of human sacrifice.

    There is nothing 'out of context' in pointing out that nowhere in the bible is there a word against slavery ─ Paul tells slaves to be good and obedient, the Torah sets out rules for owning and bonking slaves, how to sell your daughter into slavery &c.

    There is nothing 'out of context' in drawing attention to Yahweh directing massacres of conquered populations except the virgins, who are to be divided up among the troops.

    There is nothing 'out of context' in remarking on Yahweh's homophobia, violent religious intolerance, and concept of women as property.

    And so on.

    It's not as if Yahweh were doing anything that the other gods of the Bronze Age and early iron age were not. But as examples of divine morality they're all grossly repulsive.

    I have a reasonable outline of ancient history and ancient cultures. I see religions as part of the history. I find fault with the idea that one particular deity of the era is to be protected from criticism ─ not least when [his] own book sets out the details.

    And please state clearly for the record what 'God's eternal purpose' is, and how you know.
    The one who can't see past the hero to the deeds attributed to [him], and who's only there to devise excuses for the inexcusable, isn't even looking for an accurate account of what actually happened in history ie the truth, no?
     
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  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    At the end of darkness and the beginning of light.

    The light shines only when effort is made.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Are you familiar with the archaeology at Dilmun in Bahrain?
    Dilmun (sometimes transliterated Telmun) is associated with ancient sites on the islands of Bahrain in the Persian Gulf. Because of its location along the sea trade routes linking Mesopotamia with the Indus Valley Civilization, Dilmun developed in the Bronze Age, from ca. 3000 BC, into one of the greatest entrepots of trade of the ancient world.

    There is both literary and archaeological evidence for the trade between Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley (probably correctly identified with the land called Meluhha in Akkadian). Impressions of clay seals from the Indus Valley city of Harappa were evidently used to seal bundles of merchandise, as clay seal impressions with cord or sack marks on the reverse side testify.

    continued

    Dilmun - Tilmun - Creation - Aliens - Middle East - Crystalinks
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Got question is a very poor source for any serious scholar.
     
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