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Featured The Words of Jesus.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Justanatheist, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    It is to me.
     
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  2. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    No we do not know who wrote the Gospels, this is just tradition.

    The four canonical gospels were first mentioned between 120 and 150 by Justin Martyr, who lived c.100-185.[51] Justin had no titles for them and simply called them the "memoirs of the Apostles", but around 185 Iraneus, a bishop of Lyon who lived c.130–c.202, attributed them to: 1) Matthew, an apostle who followed Jesus in his earthly career; 2) Mark, who while himself not a disciple was the companion of Peter, who was; 3) Luke, the companion of Paul, the author of the Pauline epistles; and 4) John, who like Matthew was an apostle who had known Jesus.[51] Christian apologists and most lay Christians assume on the basis of 4th century Church teaching that the gospels were written by the Evangelists c.50-65 AD, but the scholarly consensus is that they are the work of unknown Christians and were composed c.68-110 AD
    Historical reliability of the Gospels - Wikipedia
     
  3. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    Did you use that example knowing they were not from Einstein?
    Will you use the example again in debate and accredit it to an AA group?
    Why do you think someone accredited them to Einstein if not to give them an added value?
     
  4. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    I am interested in which of the works were not penned by Samuel Clemens?;)
     
  5. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    Yes.

    I don't know where it came from. When I use it, I attribute it to no one. I typically say, "attributed to Einstein, though he never said it."

    I don't know. I wasn't there. Speculating on this is a waste of my time.
     
  6. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    Ok thanks for your input I found it quite interesting whether words acquire a value because of who they are attributed too, especially in the context of this thread.:)
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    The majority of scholars agree with you really.
     
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  8. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I'll tell you what the Bible says about itself. Whether you believe it or not is another question, but I'll quote a couple of scriptures which are actually in the Bible.

    2 Tim 3:16,

    All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    According to this verse Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John did not write what they heard from other people or what they themselves may or may not have heard. Instead they wrote what God told them to write. God knew what Jesus said, so if you believe the Bible, you can take the words of who said what to who to the bank.

    2 Pet 1:20-21,

    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.​

    We in the modern West think of "prophecy" as foretelling the future, but that is not how the word was used in the Bible (meanings of words do change over time, this being but one example). It can be foretelling, but it can also be forth-telling. In other words it's all prophecy and this verse says none of it was man's idea. The word "moved" in verse 21 is the Greek word "phero" and it meant "to be carried along."

    Bottom line: if you take the Bible as being authored, not by 25 or so different people over the course of 1,500 years or so, but as coming straight from God then you can be sure that what the Bible claims Jesus said he actually said.

    Take care.
     
    #28 rrobs, Jul 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
  9. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    "The things we do in life, echo through eternity."
    "We are but shadows and dust, Maximus. Shadows and dust."

    Two great quotes off the top of my head, from the movie Gladiator. Just because they're from a movie, doesn't mean they aren't profound. But if you attribute them to Marcus Aurelius (played by Richard Harris in the movie), that probably adds a bit of gravitas.
     
  10. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    I met Richard Harris when I was a YOP at the Bristol Old Vic, he could make "pass the bog roll" sound profound!
     
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  11. RestlessSoul

    RestlessSoul Well-Known Member

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    He was a brilliant Oliver Cromwell
     
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  12. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    How interesting, I've never seen a book with a brain and a mouth that can speak.
     
  13. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    In ancient history pretty much all we have is “he said that” from author who lived long after he was alive.

    So if you reject the claim that “Jesus said X” for that reason, you should reject all ancient history
     
  14. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    I am indeed skeptical of any words attributed to people in ancient history, particularly when an original manuscript does not exist. Are you not?
     
  15. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    If you believe in what is written in the bible then you believe what is written in the bible, that is circular reasoning.
     
  16. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    While the Bible is certainly interesting, it does not have a brain or speak words.

    You may want to do a study on figures of speech. A figure of speech is a legitimate grammar tool used to emphasize something or to draw one's attention to something. You can tell a figure of speech because it is not true to fact. So the Bible having a brain or speaking words is not true to fact, so it has to be a figure of speech. It emphasize what is actually written down in the Bible. The fact that it is written is true to fact. I mean you can see the words written down (if you argue with that then my suspicions are true, i.e. you just like to argue). That it actually utters words is a figure of speech meant to emphasize that it does have a message.
     
  17. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Not really. There is actually stuff written in the Bible. That is for certain. It is independent of belief. The question is whether one believes it or not. But I have to give you credit for twisting my words in to saying something you know darn well I didn't mean.

    Have you and I talked about a straw man? I know a lot of people do here, but I don't think they know what it really is. It is twisting the words or adding words that someone didn't actually say in an argument in order to make for an easier attack, when the debater has no substantive reply to the actual content. This reply of yours is a great example of a straw man. You appear to have no meaningful rebuttal to what I said.
     
  18. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    No it is not my intention to create a strawman lets start again, what do you mean by this?

     
  19. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I had Chinese food for lunch today. Of course it comes with a fortune cookie. Mine said,
    "Fortune cookie says ....blah, blah."

    Would you take that to mean a fortune cookie has a brain and a mouth that can speak?
     
  20. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't know how to say it any more plainly.

    I don't know if you really can't understand rather simple grammatical constructions or you just want to argue. In either case, there's not much more I can say.
     
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