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Featured The Words of Jesus.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Justanatheist, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    Often in debates people write "Jesus says" or "Jesus tells us" but as far as I can see in the bible the only things Jesus wrote are,
    "




    "
    Everything else is what someone else tells us about what Jesus said, often many years after his death and from people who never met him. How much importance do you give to "he said" "she said" in your normal life outside religion?
     
    #1 Justanatheist, Jul 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
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  2. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, in all matters morality/ethics, utility, aesthetics and metaphysic/ontology, it is so far always "he said" "she said" "non-gender/they said".
    So since what Jesus said, is about the above, I listen to him like any other human and see what I can learn.
     
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  3. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    I am always skeptical about what is attributed to other people, I check quotes,' sources and context before believing anything actually came from that persons mouth especially if what they are saying is important. Some religion claim the words came from the prophet/god without a third party intervention and their holy books are protected'.
     
  4. ben d

    ben d Being

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    No schools in those days, Jesus probably would not be able to write, probably also true for his disciples. Paul I think was educated so could write. Scribes made a living writing in those days I guess. As to how accurate the words attributed to Jesus are is the question to be asked, as there would have been some oral tradition until the gospels were written. Perhaps some divine channeling involved too, who knows?
     
  5. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that the person who many believe to be a god was illiterate?
     
  6. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Unless he was schooled, yes. Only the wealthy could afford private tutors for schooling their children. Of course he would have basic learning as appropriate for being a carpenter, but probably not much more. Being spiritual does not equate with secular education.
     
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  7. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how many Christians have dwelt on that, it appears to me very odd that a omnipotent god could not read or write.
     
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  8. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, since I am a strong skeptic and thus not a believer in any strong metaphysics and not just a religious non-believer, I don't care about religion as a negative in regards to metaphysics. I just look for if I can learn something about how to cope as a human.

    As for being protected, some versions of claims about reality, real, existence, knowledge/evidence, rationality and metaphysical physicalism/materialism/naturalism are in effect no different than some religions. You can't doubt them, because then you don't in effect have a correct, right and true life. In other words faith and dogmatic claims are not limited to religion. Or if you like religion is not the only way to claim in effect objective authority over the world and humans. Some non-religious belief systems also do that.
     
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  9. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Jesus was not an omnipotent God, he was an expression of, a son of God. As such he didn't need to be educated and articulate, he explained that he channeled God, he did not say things from his own self, but rather what God (Father) told him to say.
     
  10. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    I do not pretend to fully understand Christian Theology but it would appear at least some Christians would agree with my assessment based on a quick google.

    The Bible’s Answer

    Introduction
    The Bible’s answer to this question is yes, Jesus Christ is omnipotent, the most powerful being in existence. The Bible tells us in many passages that Jesus is God (e.g. John 1:1, 14; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8; Revelation 1:17). By definition, God is all-powerful. For God to be God, there cannot be anything above him in power, otherwise the more powerful thing would be God. Since the Bible calls Jesus God, this demands, then, that he must be all-powerful.
    Is Jesus Omnipotent (All-powerful)? | Redemption of Humanity
     
  11. ben d

    ben d Being

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    Perhaps so, but if you want to actually know, you must do work in trying to understand the scripture rather than take the easy road and have the 'scribes' tell you what it means.

    Religion and the bible imho is not about belief, though human religious institutions would have you believe it is so, it is about understanding what it means to be an expression of the Cosmos, to know what and who you are in the context of absolute existence. Jesus understood, but it doesn't help one just to believe he understood, we must understand ourselves!
     
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  12. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    It depends on their value, and this hold true not only with Jesus, but with anyone else that has anything to say of value.
     
  13. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    If it has value, does it matter who wrote it?

    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ~ Not Einstein

    Still has value, no?
     
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  14. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    this isn't unusual among many teachers. siddhartha wrote nothing, pythagoras wrote nothing, socrates wrote nothing, all of their works was 2nd hand.
     
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  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    A great deal as his words "love one another as I have loved you" continually resonate with both my wife and I.
     
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  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    Many might say the same thing about the works of Mark Twain, much (if not all) of which, was penned by Samuel Clemens. The difference, of course, is that Clemens can be considered a reliable eyewitness. :)
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    There is evidence in the Gospels that Jesus could read and Matthew was a tax collector who would have had a command of reading. Luke and Paul could obviously read and the letter of Paul went to people who could read. There are discoveries which show that Jews did teach reading to their children.
    James and John the sons of Zebedee were children of a wealthy man who owned a fishing fleet, they could have been able to read as Zebedee would have also.
    Even Peter it seems had a large house and so was not just a poor illiterate peasant.
    It was Jesus turn to read the scriptures in the synagogue when He went to where He lived. That seems to indicate that others also had turns to read.
    Here is a link about it if you are interested. To assume that hardly anyone could read or write in those days is not scholarly imo but that is what many sceptical scholars do it seems.
    Were Jesus' Disciples Illiterate Peasants?
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    No, there is narrative in the Gospels suggesting that Jesus could read, much as there is narrative in all manner of prose to the effect that all manner of people could do all manner of things.

    Note, for example, this from The Infancy Gospel of Thomas:

    III. 1 But the son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph; and he took a branch of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered together. 2 And when Jesus saw what was done, he was wroth and said unto him: O evil, ungodly, and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters do thee? behold, now also thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt not bear leaves, neither root, nor fruit. 3 And straightway that lad withered up wholly, but Jesus departed and went unto Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to Joseph, and accused him 'for that thou hast such a child which doeth such deeds.'

    IV. 1 After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work? And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children.​

    Shall this, too, be construed as evidence, or only that which is properly curated for the purpose of apologetics?

    Were there a Jesus (and I suspect there was) there is little reason to presume him illiterate, but there is also (in my opinion) little reason to exaggerate the evidentiary weight of the canonical texts.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I have no problem with that, although I think Jesus' audience is a tad bigger. ;)

    BTW, I feel the same way about so many others in world history who taught and showed compassion towards all, especially my main mentor Mohandas K. Gandhi.
     
  20. Justanatheist

    Justanatheist Well-Known Member

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    Those words probably came from an AA group in Knoxville Tennessee in 1981, but attach the name of Einstein to them and a small meme industry is born. Amazing how much value those words written only 40 years ago have acquired because people think they were written by Einstein. Do you still think the value is in the words and not the name?

    Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results – Quote Investigator
     
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