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Featured The Word

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by rrobs, Jul 27, 2020.

  1. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Even an infant?
     
  2. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Rob wrote...... There must have been some difference between how God worked with Abraham and how he worked with Mary. Abraham's son was born with a sin nature, whereas Mary's was not.

    According to the above, You do not accept that Jesus was a true human being, and was not sired by male human semen, being introduced into the uterus of the young Mary.

    1 John 4: 1-3; "My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know whether it is God's Spirit: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus Christ came as 'A HUMAN BEING' has the Spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the Spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the Enemy of Christ; you heard that it would come, and now it is here in the world already.

    If Jesus was not of the seed of Adam, then he was not a human being, but some hybrid son of a life form that is said to have pre-existed the creation of the Cosmos.


    Hebrews 5: 7; In his life on earth Jesus made his prayers and requests with loud cries and tears to God, who could save him from death. Because he was humble and devoted, God heard him. But even though he was 'A' Son of God, he learnt through his sufferings to be obedient. When he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him, and God declared him to be high priest, in the priestly order of Melchizedek.

    'A' son of God, check it out in Strong's concordance, KJV, Amplified, RSV, and others. Psalms 82: 6; ‘You are gods,’ I said; ‘all of you are children of the Most High.’ All Israelites are the children of God.

    According to the Holy scriptures, the man Jesus had to be brought to perfection through the sufferings that he endured, only then did the Lord God our savior declare him to be high priest, in the priestly order of Melchizedek with these words, "You are my son, (My heir and successor) TODAY I have become your Father."

    Hebrews 5:5; In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honour of being a high priest. Instead, God said to him:
    “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” He also said in another place, You will be a priest for ever,
    in the priestly order of Melchizedek.”

    When did the Lord God our savior, declare Jesus to be his son with these words, "You are my son, TODAY I have become your Father." Or This day I have begotten thee?

    All have sinned and all must pay the death penalty for the sins of the body in which they (The invisible minds) had developed, The only one who can pay the penalty for the sins of Mankind, Is He who developed within the body of mankind, 'The Son of Man,' our Lord God and savior, who filled the man Jesus with his spirit, and who abandoned his chosen successor on the cross as he gave up the spirit, crying out, "My God, My God, Why have you abandoned me."

    He, who from the previous world that was destroyed by water, who was taken up and anointed as the heir and successor to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation, where he was to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity, was translated in order that he should never see death, and it was he who could never die, who, after duplicating himself in the man Jesus, ceased to be an individual entity, by releasing the spirits of all the righteous, who had been gathered to him during the three days, or three thousand years that he had been in the valley of man, which is the spiritual dimension that co-exists within our three dimensional universe, (The Kingdom of God is within you."

    Three days later, when the body of Jesus, who had been obedient to our Lord even unto his cruel death of the cross, was resurrected, those righteous spirits came out of their graves and entered the holy city and revealed themselves as the risen body of the Christ, who had been anointed by the Most High in the creation, as his heir and successor.

    Jesus is seen as the 'Son of Man' by the words that the Lord spoke through his obedient servant, Acts 3: 13; "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has given divine Glory to his servant Jesus."

    Jesus from Nazareth,, who is now incontestably divine, and who sits in the heavenly throne of our father and invites all. who like himself, are able to win the victory, to sit beside him in our Fathers throne, from where they will judge even the angels.

    As to the dam pump, the bearings are ceased, lucky that we had an old pump that still works, which will do the Job until I can get the bearing replaced.

    Catch ya later mate.
     
    #162 The Anointed, Sep 8, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  3. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Afraid so.

    There are several verses in Genesis chapter one that talk about seed. Essentially, that say the offspring of anything has the nature of its parent. That's as true for a lizard as for a human. Except for Jesus, there is not a person born who did not begin without a sin nature. That is why we all die.

    Rom 5:12,

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    Death is a part of life. It comes with the territory. Jesus provided a way out for those who want one. But he is not really the only way to enjoy everlasting life. Everybody will eventually be raised from the dead and judged according to their works with consideration of their hearts and intentions. The ones that pass go to everlasting life on a new earth (the idea of floating on a cloud forever is a un-scriptural, man made invention).

    The ones that fail experience what the scriptures call "the second death." Given that the scriptures declare in many places that the dead have no consciousness, the idea of eternal torment in a lake of fire is yet another un-scriptural invention of the orthodox church. The ones that fail will simply cease to exist, just like the first death.

    Among the many advantages enjoyed by Christians in God's plan is that they have already been judged and found worthy. They have a guaranteed spot on the new earth which God will create after Armageddon. Christians need not wonder about their final end. They can enjoy this life while knowing the will have a new life that is about 10
    Jesus is fully human, 100%. Yes as to all his perfection coming after his suffering and resurrection. No problems there for me.

    The only thing I don't think you understand is that God created a new seed and that is the seed by which Jesus was conceived. Mary had intercourse after Jesus' conception but before his birth. Otherwise it would have been an awfully painful birth for Mary.

    Jesus thus started out perfect, unlike all other men born with seed from Adam. But it was his free will choice to believe and obey God in order to remain perfect until his sacrifice as the lamb without blemish. But God didn't really know for sure Jesus would go the distance until he said, "It is finished." Then God was able to raise him and declare him to be the Son of God with power.

    God also created a new creature in each born again believer, so no new concept.

    Do you find it odd that God told Eve the redeemer would come from her seed? Isn't seed usually from the male? Any ideas on that?

    Take care
     
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Who would raise them from dead? A God? You have neither established the existence of God nor that of any everlasting life. What are you doing? Selling snake-oil? You are also talking of a new earth. Where, when? Yeah, people will be judged according to their deeds. Then Jesus, Allah, God are superfluous.

    How can Christians be judged before their life ends? Hitler, Franco, and other Christian dictators were Christians. Is the new earth assured for them?

    UNICEF estimates say 130 million children are born every year in the world. Sure, as the father of two children, I do not under-estimate the child-birth pain. Sometimes there is, sometimes there is not. But why would Mary have had an 'awfully painful' child birth? So, it was a new kind of seed - God's seed? How did it reach Mary's womb?

    Ah, your God is not omniscient and omnipotent? He was not sure whether Jesus would last the distance. He was doubtful whether he had made Jesus, his seed, strong enough. What can I say about your God when you have not provided me any evidence of his existence and action? You have talked about all things in the world but not the evidence for your God.
     
    #164 Aupmanyav, Sep 9, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
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  5. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    All those questions can be answered at: tltf.org.
     
  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    That would be more of what you and others have written in the forums at RF. Smart way to avoid answering.
     
  7. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Well thanks for giving me credit for being smart. It's about time I got some recognition around here. :)
     
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  8. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Yeah, but you see, smartness cannot substitute for substance. :)
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If He has the full nature of God then He is by nature God. Phil 2 tells us He kept the nature that He had as a prehuman when He added to it the nature of a servant and became a man. He was both God and man by nature.

    Isa 53:11 After the anguish of His soul, He will see the light of life and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities.

    I have often wondered just what it means when it says, "by His knowledge my righteous servant will justify many". It may have helped for Him to know whom He was.
    Does that matter? He did not come to be tested by He Father to see if He was good enough, He came to do a job as the Lamb without blemish, the one who is the image of His Father.
    And yes the scriptures say He was tempted like the rest of us but did not sin. Whom He was and maybe also knowing whom He was could have helped Him not to sin.

    Making the Father and the Son one and the same individual sounds like what the Unitarians do. The Trinity acknowledges the distinctiveness of the Father and Son and acknowledges also the same nature that they share.

    I don't think that verse says we are fully divine, another translation is that we "taste" of the divine nature. Jesus was fully divine and took on servant nature also as a man and we are fully human and taste the divine nature and become children of God when we are joined spiritually to Jesus.

    1 Cor 6:16 Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.

    2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 Now we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this surpassingly great power is from God and not from us.

    If we had he full nature of God we also would not sin.
    We are the body of Christ and partake of the Spirit of God, joined to us to make us His children.
    2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
    Our destiny is to reflect the glory of Jesus the man, but we don't go any further than that.
    Jesus fills all things and has all power and maybe it could be said that we are little gods but I prefer transforming humans.

    Having a knowledge of His will is different to knowing all about God.

    Does having the mind of Christ mean that we know all things about God? Not that I am aware.
    Knowing Jesus and His Father is what we are called to, knowing everything about them is a different matter.
     
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Rob wrote…… Jesus is fully human, 100%. Yes as to all his perfection coming after his suffering and resurrection. No problems there for me.

    You must mean; "After his suffering and three and a half years before his resurrection."

    Jesus, was conceived from the union of male and female human parents, and was 100% human.

    Rob wrote…… The only thing I don't think you understand is that God created a new seed and that is the seed by which Jesus was conceived.

    Yea, and crows fly backward out in my country to keep the dust from out their eyes. You are going to be hard pushed to find scriptural evidence to support your little flight into mental fantasy there, old mate.


    Rob wrote…… Mary had intercourse after Jesus' conception but before his birth. Otherwise it would have been an awfully painful birth for Mary.

    Again, you will find no scriptural evidence to support your fantasy. What you are saying, is that when Joseph the son of Jacob, found out that his fiancée was pregnant, but was told her pregnancy was according to God’s plan, he continued in their relationship, but had absolutely no sexual contact with her until after she had given birth to Jesus, the first born of her sons. So, who was this other man that you accuse Mary of having sex with after the conception of Jesus, but before his birth?

    Rob wrote…… Jesus thus started out perfect, unlike all other men born with seed from Adam.

    Then why, before the spirit of the Lord God our savior descended upon Jesus on the day that he was baptised, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my Son; TODAY I have become your Father,” it is written in Hebrew 5:7-9; (Jesus) who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, though He was ‘A’ Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, etc

    So, the man Jesus was not born perfect, it was after he had been perfected through the things which he suffered, that the Lord God our savior said to him; “You are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father. And it was then that Jesus took on the title of his spiritual Father ‘CHRIST the anointed one,’ who was taken up in the world that was destroyed by water, and anointed as the heir and successor to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation, where he was to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity.

    In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." This was on the day he was baptised, after having been brought to perfection by the things which He suffered.

    6And he says in another place, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

    Rob wrote…… But it was his free will choice to believe and obey God in order to remain perfect until his sacrifice as the lamb without blemish. But God didn't really know for sure Jesus would go the distance until he said, "It is finished." Then God was able to raise him and declare him to be the Son of God with power.

    The Lord God our savior, declared the man Jesus to be his chosen heir and successor (His Son) three and a half years before he was crucified, when he began his ministry immediately after he was baptised, and the heavenly voice had said “You are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father.”.

    Rob wrote…… God also created a new creature in each born again believer, so no new concept.

    1 Peter 3; Peter states that the baptism was symbolic of the flood. For just as the body of Adam was submerged in the baptismal waters of the world and the body of Enoch arose, so too was it with the man Jesus, when he was filled with the spirit, of the Son of Man, our Savior, who was anointed as the successor to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation.

    Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives are all direct genetic descendants of Enoch through his six sons Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad.

    2 Peter 3: 5-7; They purposely ignore the fact that long ago, God gave a command, and the heavens and earth were created. The earth was formed out of water and by water, and it was also by water, the water of the flood, that the old world was destroyed. But the heavens and the earth that now exist are being preserved by the same command of God, in order to be destroyed by fire. They are being kept for the day when godless people will be judged and destroyed.

    1 Peter 1-2; He had been chosen by God before the creation of the world (This world that is destined to be destroyed by fire) and was revealed in these last days for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from death and gave him glory; and so your faith and hope are fixed on God.

    Rob wrote…… Do you find it odd that God told Eve the redeemer would come from her seed? Isn't seed usually from the male? Any ideas on that?

    No I didn’t find it odd, because I knew that word 'seed' in that instance and many other instances in the scriptures, simply means ‘descendants.’ KJV Deuteronomy 4: 37; And because he loved they Fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt….. The Hebrew ‘zera’ can be translated ‘Progeny.’

    RSV Deuteronomy 4: 37; “And because he loved your fathers and chose their descendants after them, and brought you out of Egypt with his own presence, by his great power, etc.

    Catch ya later mate.
     
  11. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I think you are talking about Jesus and equality with God. If that actually makes him God, what do we do with Philippians 2:5?

    Phil 2:5,

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:​

    It says we should think whatever Jesus thought. Should we therefore think we are God?

    Since we are sons of God, we also have a divine nature as per 2 Peter 1:4. Are we all therefore God? Any offspring has the same nature as its parent, even a lizard, but that doesn't made the offspring their own father.

    Caesar's image was on the coin. Does that mean the coin was Caesar? Of course not. An image of something is not the thing itself. Did not God create us in His image?

    How in the world could his temptations have been anything at all like ours? Do you think you might handle temptation differently if you knew you were God? If Jesus was God then Hebrews 4:15 is not true. He could in no wise have been tempted like us if he were God.

    I'm not making them one. I'm saying God is the Father of Jesus. That makes two people in any book. Again, two individuals having the same nature does not make them one individual. Like I said, two lizards have the same nature, but they are still two lizards, and two (or three) lizards are never going to be one lizard.

    The Greek word is from the root koinos.

    G2839 κοινός koinos (koi-nos') adj.
    1. common, shared.
    2. (literally) shared by all or several.​

    Look up the other usages. For example;

    1 Pet 5:1,

    The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
    The elders will not simply "taste" the glory to come at Jesus' return. They will enjoy it fully.

    We do have the nature of God and yet we still sin. The problem is in our flesh, not the new creation of 2 Cor 5:17.

    We can if we ditch tradition and only believe the scriptures. Now we may never arrive at the point of knowing everything, but God nonetheless made it available. If you had my mind, would you not know everything I know? Why is it any different in 1 Corinthians 2:16?

    Eph 3:17-19,

    17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

    18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

    19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.​

    Being filled with the fullness of God gives us some kind of edge, no? But should we think we are God?
     
  12. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Rrobs said : “As you know all men are born with a sin nature.” (post #160)
    Aupmanyav asked : “Even an infant?” (post #161)
    Rrobs replied : “afraid so.” (post #163)



    Hi @Aupmanyav


    I just wanted to make a very specific point. @rrobs did not explain in detail what he meant when he claimed that even infants are born with a “sin nature”.

    I just wanted to mention that not all Christians believe (or historically "believed") this same thing regarding infants. For example, in early Judeo-Christianity, infants were born innocent of having committed any sin, nor was their any sin in a newborn infant though they were born into a world where sin was committed and, it was assumed, that once they aged, and matured, would commit sin like all other morally competent individuals tend to do.

    Infants, however, were, themselves born innocent of any sin in the early Judeo-Christian model.



    Good luck coming to your own beliefs on these points Aupmanyav



    Clear
    τωσιεισιω
     
  13. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't matter what I meant. Here's what the scriptures say:

    Rom 5:12,

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

    1 Peter 1:23 makes a distinction between corruptible seed and incorruptible seed. The seed any baby receives from their earthly father is corruptible, i.e. the baby will eventually die. We have Adam to thank for that. He passed his corruptible seed onto Seth, who passed his corruptible seed onto Enos, etc, etc, on down the line. Everybody is born into this world by corruptible seed. In other words they start out with a sin nature. Now the baby does not commit sin the day it was born, but it will.

    But individual sins that each of us commit are not the real problem. The problem is that we were born with a sin nature and that is why we are all subject to death. A cat meows, a dog barks, cows moo, and people sin. Each only follows it's nature.

    The solution? Get born again of incorruptible seed (1 Pet 1:23) by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead. If the 6th grade reading level of Romans 10:9-10 means anything, that is how we get saved. According to 2 Peter 1:4, that gives us a diving nature, which is part of incorruptible seed, and that is why we will be with Jesus on the new earth he will establish in Revelation.

    Are we to take the historical belief of anybody over the scriptures? Not in my Christianity!
     
  14. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi Rrobs

    Rrobs said : “As you know all men are born with a sin nature.” (post #160)
    Aupmanyav asked : “Even an infant?” (post #161)
    Rrobs replied : “afraid so.” (post #163)
    Clear said : "I just wanted to make a very specific point. @rrobs did not explain in detail what he meant when he claimed that even infants are born with a “sin nature”."...
    Infants, however, were, themselves born innocent of any sin in the early Judeo-Christian model. (post #172)

    Rrobs replied : "It doesn't matter what I meant. Here's what the scriptures say: Rom 5:12, Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (post #173)


    Of course it matters what you meant Rrobs.

    THE RATIONAL CHRISTIAN BELIEF THAT NEWBORNS ARE INNOCENT OF ANY PERSONAL SIN VS THE IRRATIONAL BELIEF THAT NEWBORNS PERSONALLY SIN
    The belief that an innocent infant will someday become a morally competent adult and sin is different than the silly theory that an innocent newborn themselves are born "full of sin" or having themselves "committed sin". If you "meant" to describe the first theory then this is supportable. If you meant to describe the second theory then this is a silly and irrational religious theory.

    WHY SHOULD YOUR PERSONAL, MODERN RELIGION AND ITS INTERPRETATION TAKE PRIORITY OVER ANCIENT CHRISTIAN RELIGION WITH ITS INTERPRETATION OF TEXTS?
    While you seem to make the claim that the "historical belief" of the earliest Christians is not to be taken over your personal own personal interpretation of their scriptures, you must keep in mind that your religion is not the same as their religion regarding the innocence of newborns. The early Christian belief and interpretation of scriptures was that newborns were born innocent of any personal sin. Why should your personal belief and personal interpretation take priority over that of the belief and interpretation of the earliest Christians?

    Clear
    τωσιφισεω
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    If the first death is the end of your life, then all will descend into total oblivion, for all have sinned and all must die once, then go off into judgement.

    We are told that those who lead good lives find peace and rest in death. Isaiah 57: 1-2; "Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they (Good people) die no Calamity can harm them. Those who lead Good lives find peace and rest in death." Nothing is said here about those who lead wicked lives finding peace and rest in death.

    Jesus reinforces the prophet Isaiah's statement in his story of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man, revealing that the spirits of the dead, who are judged as being righteous, are separated from the unrighteous spirits, and they enter into rest in the bosom of Abraham, and over the spirits of the righteous, the second death has no power.

    The minds/Spirits of the righteous, close their eyes in death, and as if no time had passed, they awake to everlasting life. This is not the way of the sleeping unrighteous, whose minds relive their evil deeds over and over again, as the await their unknown destiny on the great day of Judgement. Perhaps many will be truly repentant for their past sins, before that day arrives

    Jesus, the son of Mary and her half-brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios=Heli, was the earthly body that God, the MOST HIGH in the creation had prepared for his Heir and successor, in which to reveal himself to mankind.

    The word “CHRIST” means “The Anointed One.” Enoch was the one anointed by the Most-High as his successor.

    Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

    Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days --- A calendar year: the one-year old sacrificial lamb of God) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had taken him.

    Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and was not found, because God had translated him.”

    Enoch was chosen to stand before the face of the MOST HIGH in the creation, to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity.

    "The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

    And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord's face.

    And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the throne of the Most-High in the creation: Christ= The Anointed one.]

    And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

    To translate something is to change it from one form to another. Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not experience death, and he was not found because God had translated him.”

    Good News Bible, Catholic Study Edition, Hebrews 10: 5-7; For this reason, when Christ was about to come into the world, he said to God: “You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but you have prepared a body for me.

    You are not pleased with animals burnt whole on the altar or with sacrifices to take away sins.

    Then I said, ‘Here I am, to do your will, O God, just as it is written of me in the book of the Law.’ ”

    That body was Jesus, in who dwelt all the spirits of the righteous over whom the second death had no power, who was selectively bred as the body, in which his heir and successor would reveal himself to mankind.

    The man Jesus was the physical IMAGE of the spiritual Heir to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation.

    John 14: 30; I cannot talk to you much longer, because (DEATH) the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me, but the world must know I love the Father; that is why I do everything as he commands me.

    The author of the book of Hebrews could only have received the information that Enoch was translated in order to never see death, from the books of Enoch themselves, as nowhere in the canon of the Roman church. Or the Hebrew bible, is that information to be found, and which are found nowhere else other than in the books of Enoch the righteous, from which Jesus and his apostles taught, which books were cherished by the early Christians, and were held in great reverence by many of the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen, until the early 4th century, when under the ban of dogmatic religious authorities of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, such as Jerome, Hillary and Augustin, they passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia.

    The stone that the builders rejected has turned out to be the most important stone of all. Enoch the cornerstone to which the spirits of the righteous were gathered in the creation of the earthly temple of God.

    Enoch speaks of the things he saw in his ascent to the 10th heaven: The book of Enoch the prophet 39: 6-8.

    “And in that place mine eyes saw the Elect One of righteousness and of faith, and I saw his dwelling place beneath the wings of the Lord of Spirits, and righteousness shall prevail in his days, and the righteous and elect shall be without number before him forever and ever. And all the righteous and elect before him shall be as fiery lights, and their mouths shall be full of blessing. And their lips shall extol the name of the Lord of Spirits, and righteousness before him shall never fail.”

    THERE I WISHED TO DWELL, AND MY SPIRIT LONGED FOR THAT DWELLING PLACE: AND HENCEFORTH HATH BEEN MY PORTION. FOR SO IT HATH BEEN ESTABLISHED CONCERNING ME BEFORE THE LORD OF SPIRITS.--------------

    43: 3; On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory and shall try their works, and their places of rest shall be innumerable, and their souls shall grow strong within them when they see Mine elect ones, and those who have called on MY Glorious Name ( my addition; JHWH= Who I Am).

    And the Elect One in those days shall sit on MY throne, (Enoch is the living indwelling ancestral spirit of all the descendants of the eight souls who were saved by the water) and his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel; for the Lord of Spirits hath given them to him and hath glorified him, etc.

    Then I will cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them. And I will transform the heaven and make it an eternal blessing of Light, and I will transform the earth and make it a blessing: and I will cause Mine elect ones to dwell upon it: but the sinners and evil-doers shall not set foot thereon, for I have provided and satisfied with peace My righteous one.

    Concerning the Elect one of righteousness, Enoch the Prophet has this to say 49: 3; “In him dwells the spirit of wisdom, and the spirit which gives insight, and the spirit of understanding and of might, and ‘THE SPIRITS OF THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.’”

    As said previously, “Over those spirits of whom Jesus was their compilation, the second death had no power.”
     
  16. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Thanks, Clear, for trying to put another perspective on sin in Christianity, but in early Judeo-Christian model, the infants, even while being innocents, were punishable by the jealous YHWH up to third or fourth generation for the sins of their fathers.
     
    #176 Aupmanyav, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  17. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Correct! The Lord through Samuel his prophet, commanded King Saul to attack and and destroy the Amalekites for what their ancestors had done to Israel over three hundred years previously, he was to completely destroy everything they had. Saul was commanded to kill all the men, women, children, and babies; the cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys. Which he didn't do, and for that reason he was rejected as King of Israel and replaced by David the son of Jesse. 1 Samuel 15: 1-3.
     
  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Sorry mate, but I'm not into tales of fantasy as you appear to be.
     
  20. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I think the biggest difference between you and I is that you use tradition as your basis of truth whereas I use the scriptures.

    You talk about "my" interpretation where I'm not interpreting anything. I'm just reading what's written and I believe it.

    Eph 2:3,

    Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Does that really need interpretation? Computer document analysis of the scriptures say they are written at between a 6th grade to 8th grade reading level.

    Ps 51:5,

    Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.​

    Is 58:3,

    The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
    I don't see that these need any interpretation either. Pretty simple sentences.

    Now I'm not saying babies are doomed to eternal punishment. Revelation speaks of the second judgment where everybody that ever lived will be raised from the dead and judged. Those who are found in the book of life will enter paradise. Those not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire where they will cease to exist forever. It says they will experience the second death. I think it fair to say that all babies will make it to paradise.

    I don't think you understand the difference between sin and sins. Read the first 8 chapters of Romans for more info, but basically sin is our nature from birth. As such we commit sins. Sin is the nature and sins are the product of that nature. The individual sins are not the problem. It is our very nature of sin, not our particular sins, that separates us from God. A baby, though not having committed any sins, is nonetheless of the same kind (read about seed in Genesis 1) as its parent, i.e. a creature with a sin nature.

    Rom 5:12,

    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

    Sin is the reason we all die. Our particular sins have nothing to do with it. Have I "interpreted" that in any way whatsoever? I don't think so. Like Eph 2:3, this verse is around a 6th grade reading level. No interpretation required.

    One requires "interpretation" when they approach the scriptures with preconceived ideas. Then the scriptures get twisted to agree with that preconceived idea.

    You really need to decide if the words of the scriptures, purified 7 times, or if the early beliefs of the church are the source of truth. When deciding you may want to consider all the places where Paul said outsiders are screwing up the true doctrine. Maybe consider your ideas to have come from some of those guys. I think you'd get on the right track if you did that, but it's up to you who you want to believe.
     
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