The WORD of GOD... really?

[QuestioningMind]

I’d honestly like to get a response from individuals here who proclaim that the bible is the WORD of GOD. How can you, in your heart-of-hearts, believe this to be true? Surely you don’t believe that GOD actually sat down and wrote the words that you read in this book. You do comprehend that every single word within the bible was written by fallible, imperfect human beings, right? And that fallible, imperfect human beings have been deciding for thousands of years how to translate various passages from long dead languages, fighting over and deciding what parts to include and what parts to take out. Do you honestly believe that over thousands of years people haven’t altered what is in this book in order to further their own selfish gains? How then do you explain the fact that there are so many different versions of the WORD of GOD?

So clearly what we have here is not the WORD of GOD, but rather, various fallible, imperfect human being’s interpretation and personal belief as to what the WORD of GOD is.

 

[Skwim]

The answer is that the people who actually first put pen to paper were instruments of god, either inspired to write only the truth or whose hands were physically moved by god to write the truth. Take your pick. As for all subsequent versions that appear and the question as to which is correct, this came about because different people require different versions in order to assimilate the truth. Not all people will be convinced by the same presentation. Therefore, while the details have been necessarily changed to accommodate this need, the message, which is the all-important element, remains the same.

:run:

 

[McBell]

The answer is that the people who actually first put pen to paper were instruments of god, either inspired to write only the truth or whose hands were physically moved by god to write the truth. Take your pick. As for all subsequent versions that appear and the question as to which is correct, this came about because different people require different versions in order to assimilate the truth. Not all people will be convinced by the same presentation. Therefore, while the details have been necessarily changed to accommodate this need, the message, which is the all-important element, remains the same.

:run:

The one true version of Gods Word is the AV 1611 KJV.
In fact, if the originals differ from the AV1611 KJV, then you are to toss out the originals.

 

[Skwim]

The one true version of Gods Word is the AV 1611 KJV.
In fact, if the originals differ from the AV1611 KJV, then you are to toss out the originals.

As good a solution as any.

 

[McBell]

As good a solution as any.

Darn tootin!!

 

[SMTA]

The answer is that the people who actually first put pen to paper were instruments of god, either inspired to write only the truth or whose hands were physically moved by god to write the truth. Take your pick. As for all subsequent versions that appear and the question as to which is correct, this came about because different people require different versions in order to assimilate the truth. Not all people will be convinced by the same presentation. Therefore, while the details have been necessarily changed to accommodate this need, the message, which is the all-important element, remains the same.

Bingo! We have a winner.

 

[Pegg]

I’d honestly like to get a response from individuals here who proclaim that the bible is the WORD of GOD. How can you, in your heart-of-hearts, believe this to be true? Surely you don’t believe that GOD actually sat down and wrote the words that you read in this book.

of course no one believes that. The bible was penned by men, everyone knows this. But the way in which they penned it is why it is the 'word of God'

In some cases God spoke directly to individuals and instructed them to pass on a message such as in the case of Moses and the laws he passed onto the isrealites which formed the basis of their religious practices and requirements. God used Angels to transmit his messages to humans, he never spoke to them directly. In other cases, God gave individuals visions in which they wrote down what they saw, examples are the books of Revelation & Daniel.
Other books are simply the history and events of the ancient hebrews written by the priests & prophets of Jehovah.

You do comprehend that every single word within the bible was written by fallible, imperfect human beings, right? And that fallible, imperfect human beings have been deciding for thousands of years how to translate various passages from long dead languages, fighting over and deciding what parts to include and what parts to take out.

the jewish scribes who made copies of the scriptures did so under the strictest of conditions. they were highly skilled and trained for copying and they certainly did not change the scriptures willy nilly.

Do you honestly believe that over thousands of years people haven’t altered what is in this book in order to further their own selfish gains?

Yes. How we know that the scriptures have been copied faithfully is with the discovery of the dead sea scrolls. They proved that the bible we have today is almost exactly what was being read over 2,000 years ago.

If it were true that people were altering the bible for their own selfish gains then I would think that the history of the jews we find there in there would be a more positive reflection of the jewish people as whole and even the writers themselves openly highlight their own wrongdoings and failings. The NT contains examples of how the christians were fighting with each other, Paul and Barnabas being one example...there was sexual misconduct going on in some congregations which are openly discussed

if someone wanted to make the bible writers look good, they certainly did not a very good job of it.

How then do you explain the fact that there are so many different versions of the WORD of GOD?

there are different versions because languages are always changing...our modern english was not spoken in the first century, the greek of that time (koine) changed to modern greek and the latin that many romans spoke became obsolete after some years. So there will always be new translations, but that doesnt mean the scriptures change or that they differ from each other in their message. They are 'translated' and we still have koine greek and ancient hebrew text manuscripts from which to make translations from.

 

[Thief]

How about....burning all forms of scripture....

None to be taken as God's Word?
None have social value?

Burn them all.

Let Man's alterations stand as proof of corruption....
and none are valid.

Then what?

 

[McBell]

How about....burning all forms of scripture....

None to be taken as God's Word?
None have social value?

Burn them all.

Let Man's alterations stand as proof of corruption....
and none are valid.

works for me.

Then what?

We would have tons of theists with no idol to worship....

 

[QuestioningMind]

Okay, so let's say I somehow agree that the "originals" were guided by God's hand... has it not been fallible men who have decided which words written over the ages were guided by God's hand? How can you blindly trust that generations of sinful human beings haven't perverted these original words beyond all recognition? To point to this book and claim it is GOD's WORD is ludicrous. You don't have faith in GOD's WORD, you have faith that fallible men over the ages know what GOD's WORD is and you're just taking them at their word.

 

[Pegg]

Okay, so let's say I somehow agree that the "originals" were guided by God's hand... has it not been fallible men who have decided which words written over the ages were guided by God's hand? How can you blindly trust that generations of sinful human beings haven't perverted these original words beyond all recognition? To point to this book and claim it is GOD's WORD is ludicrous. You don't have faith in GOD's WORD, you have faith that fallible men over the ages know what GOD's WORD is and you're just taking them at their word.

well thats a fair point, there are many different religious writings claiming the same thing as the bible, so you are right to be skeptical

what would you consider to be evidence of Gods hand in any written work?

 

[Atomist]

well thats a fair point, there are many different religious writings claiming the same thing as the bible, so you are right to be skeptical

what would you consider to be evidence of Gods hand in any written work?

Well doesn't the presuppose god would write in a book, given god could simply write it out in the stars and make it say "I am your god you shall have no other gods before me... blah blah blah...." ever since mankind existed.

 

[Pegg]

Well doesn't the presuppose god would write in a book, given god could simply write it out in the stars and make it say "I am your god you shall have no other gods before me... blah blah blah...." ever since mankind existed.

I suppose he could do that, but that wouldnt give you much of a choice then...you'd have no choice but to believe.

 

[Etritonakin]

I’d honestly like to get a response from individuals here who proclaim that the bible is the WORD of GOD. How can you, in your heart-of-hearts, believe this to be true? Surely you don’t believe that GOD actually sat down and wrote the words that you read in this book. You do comprehend that every single word within the bible was written by fallible, imperfect human beings, right? And that fallible, imperfect human beings have been deciding for thousands of years how to translate various passages from long dead languages, fighting over and deciding what parts to include and what parts to take out. Do you honestly believe that over thousands of years people haven’t altered what is in this book in order to further their own selfish gains? How then do you explain the fact that there are so many different versions of the WORD of GOD?

So clearly what we have here is not the WORD of GOD, but rather, various fallible, imperfect human being’s interpretation and personal belief as to what the WORD of GOD is.

Just some information....

The bible is a collection of writings spanning a great amount of time.

About one third of the bible is prophecy.

The bible also contains poetry (song of solomon),

pslams -essentially prayers which were set to music,

genealogy (often referred to as "the begats"),

The history of Israel and their forebears -and of nations with which they interacted to a lesser extent,

a collection of wise sayings (proverbs, ecclesiates),

accounts of events involving Christ and his followers,

etc...

There are references in the modern bible to writings that are not contained within the modern bible.

God is sometimes directly quoted in the bible -sometimes indirectly.

-------------------------

It is not as if one man -or group of men -sat down and wrote it all -then said "ummm, yahhhhh -this is what God says....."

If one does not believe God exists, they will definitely not believe accounts of his interaction with man.

Either God exists or does not. If he did not exist, you would be quite correct. If He does exist as described in the bible, he ultimately controls which information is presented to which person -when, where, how, etc.... -and who understands it.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

I'll address translation, etc., later.....

 

[QuestioningMind]

It is not as if one man -or group of men -sat down and wrote it all -then said "ummm, yahhhhh -this is what God says....."

But with all due respect, groups of men throughout history have indeed sat down and decided that this particular writing WAS inspired by the hand of God and this particular writing WASN'T inspired by the hand of God. I'm just saying that it seems as if people aren't putting their faith in God, but rather are putting their faith in whatever fallible human being tells them that the particular book he has in his hand is the true WORD of GOD,

 

[Beta]

What doubters and skeptics don't allow for is the Spirit and Power of God to bring about what He plans and purposes.
He would not be the Almighty God if men could alter His Word willy-nilly.
Of course they have been quite successful at it but only because God has allowed them - for a season Ex.20v8. But now man's own time is all but up and BIIIIIIG CHANGES are coming with the beginning of v9.
Man will finally see just how foolish and ignorant he has been Rom.1v22!

 

[jmvizanko]

I suppose he could do that, but that wouldnt give you much of a choice then...you'd have no choice but to believe.

And it would be a real shame if everyone were to believe, because then god would not have anyone to happily torture.

Honestly, why should the "choice" you speak of, namely what you believe about what you can not know, be important? Maybe in a universe where to disbelieve recquired a consciously evil choice, but in this world the mistake is made unintentionally and by wise and good people. What is the value of faith? Because i can't think of any.

 

[Midnight Pete]

I have faith in God's word. How do you know what I do or do not have faith in?

 

[Midnight Pete]

And it would be a real shame if everyone were to believe, because then god would not have anyone to happily torture.

Honestly, why should the "choice" you speak of, namely what you believe about what you can not know, be important? Maybe in a universe where to disbelieve recquired a consciously evil choice, but in this world the mistake is made unintentionally and by wise and good people. What is the value of faith? Because i can't think of any.

Faith has value regardless of what you think.

 

[dave2]

But with all due respect, groups of men throughout history have indeed sat down and decided that this particular writing WAS inspired by the hand of God and this particular writing WASN'T inspired by the hand of God.

Correct, but why should this prevent you from reading the written word and getting the meaning of it? Their opinion has not changed the actual wording of the scriptures. I get the impression that your questioning as to the authenticity of the bible is based not on the written word, but the interpretations that men have put on it, two different things.