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Featured The Word Became Flesh

Discussion in 'Monotheism' started by rrobs, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    γίνομαι ginomai

    1. to cause to be (“gen”-erate).

    2. (reflexively) to become (come into being).

    3. (of events) to happen.

    John 1:14a,

    “And the word was made (γίνομαι ginoma) flesh...”

    Does this mean the word of John 1:1 was Jesus in the beginning? Was the word flesh, i.e. Jesus, before it became (γίνομαι ginoma) flesh?

    1Cor 13:11,

    When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became (ginomai) a man, I put away childish things.

    Did the man exist before Paul became a man? Did the man exist while Paul was a child? The man did not exist while Paul was a child.

    1Cor 15:20,

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become (ginomai) the firstfruits of them that slept.

    Did the firstfruits exist before Jesus became the firstfruits? Was Jesus the firstfruits before he died? The firstfruits did not exist while Jesus lived. Jesus became something he was not before his death.

    1Cor 15:37,

    And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be (ginomai), but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:

    Did the wheat exist before the (bare grain) seed became wheat? The wheat did not exist when the seed was sown. The seed became something, i.e. wheat, it was not before the seeds were planted.

    2Cor 5:17,

    Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become (ginomai) new.

    Are all things new before they become new? The new things did not exist while they were old. The things became something, i.e. new, they were not while they were old.

    Eph 2:13,

    But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made (ginomai) nigh by the blood of Christ.

    Where we near when we were far off? Our nearness did not exist while we were far off.

    1Thess 1:6,

    And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

    Did the followers exist before they became followers? The followers did not exist while they were non-followers.

    When “something” is said to become (ginomai) “something else”, it means that the “something else” did not exist while the “something” existed. Before it became “something else” it was “something.”

    John 1:14a,

    “And the word was made (γίνομαι ginoma) flesh...”

    Did the flesh exist before the word became flesh? Like all other things that becomes something else, the word was not flesh before it became flesh. Therefore, while the word existed in the beginning, Jesus did not. Jesus did not exist until the word became flesh. In other words, Jesus did not exist until he was born.
     
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  2. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    "Does this mean the word of John 1:1 was Jesus in the beginning? Was the word flesh, i.e. Jesus, before it became (γίνομαι ginoma) flesh?"


    An interesting topic on my mind now. The logos... What is meant by the logos? .

    To quantify vs. Quality. The term quality is not used here like this is a quality item that is not a quality item. That is a subjective quantified statement in regards to quality.

    The logos, is a term that is rorscachian in nature. How you see before, you actually see it, determines how you understand it after you have read it, thus the sub concious.

    That to be honest isnt a topic easily discussed at all in an internet forum. Thus my answer:

    how ever you see it, reveals how you see regardless. One answer is true the other is false. Everyone gets badly fooled. Even this fool was fooled.

    Thats a rather remarkable bit of writing to know that and to write that at the same time. Like looking at a stick in a tree and it then moves and its now a stick bug. Most just see a stick thats it. Dont even realize they have been fooled since they fool themselves.
     
  3. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is flesh, Christ Jesus is word became flesh.
     
  4. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Thanks for the reply. It is clear that the word became flesh. That is exactly what you are saying, but more importantly, that is what John 1:14 says.

    What I am suggesting is that before the word became (ginomai) Jesus, it was not Jesus. The word was with God in the beginning but Jesus was not there. As I said, Jesus didn't exist until the word became flesh which happened when Jesus was born.

    The "Word" is the Greek word "logos." Do some research and you will see it means an organized system of thoughts, i.e. a plan, that was in God's mind in the beginning. The central theme of that plan was Jesus. God planned everything around Jesus. While Jesus is certainly the "star of show" in God's plan, the logos was not Jesus. When Jesus was born, the plan (logos) came into concretion in the form of Jesus. The plan is a blueprint and Jesus is he finished product of that blueprint. A blueprint of a house exists before the house itself. Nobody would ever confuse a blueprint of a house with the house itself. While they are certainly related, they are quite different things. Same thing with God's plan and Jesus.
     
  5. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Language and the meaning of words change over time. Since the scriptures were written in the Middle East some 2,000 years ago, it behooves us to have some understanding of how those people saw things.

    With that said, it is easy enough to see what popped in the ancient Middle East mind when they came across the word "logos." Just Google it. There is tons of information, but I think you will find that the essence of the word was a "plan." If not, let me know. I'm always open to understand things better.

    Take care.
     
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  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    Christ means 'annointed one'.

    The 'Word' is all Gods Mesengers in each age God has chosen and will choose to give a Message.

    This is how Christ is the First and will be the last.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Christ is Word, basically It always existed, Christ possessed flesh of Jesus. Jesus is archetype of a person who realized Christ within.
     
  8. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Well there you go. Just google it.
     
    #8 David T, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
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  9. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    Science has determined that written language was invented about 6000 years ago. This time period coordinates with the first stable civilizations, as well as the genealogy of the bible. Spoken language, in a more formal sense, appeared about 4000 years earlier, as evident by the earliest attempts at civilization, all of which aborted. The first stable civilization coordinates with written language.

    Language is a matrix for human thought. You do not need language to think but you do need language to communicate with others. Commutation is critical for civilization. Spoken language and written language have different impacts on the mind. Spoken language is subject to change in terms of us forgetting and/or changing the way we remember what was said. Written language offers a way to refresh original meaning, even after it changes over time and via individual recall.

    In the beginning, was the word, and the word was God. God may have been the first word written by the new invention called the alphabet and written language. This was similar to Alexander Graham Bell and the invention of the telephone, where the first use of the invention was the quote, " "Mr. Watson--come here--I want to see you. Spoken religion and spoken God, became more eternal via writing.

    The invention of writing allowed the human mind to convey meaning that could be preserved and not be subject to recall atrophy. This allowed civilization to have a way to perpetuate, even when the founders passed away. Before written language, word of mouth would change the original ideas and procedures, leading to eventual decline. But now with written language, the creative traditions were safe and civilization secure.

    The word or first word, which equals God, becoming flesh or human, tells us of a prediction when written language was invented. It is as though civilization was invented for this purpose. It is also not coincidence that the printing press, which helped with mass language education, was first used to print the bible.
     
  10. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Interesting. I'll see if I can find any verses that say that. Do you know any right off hand?

    As far as I know "Christ" means "anointed." I've always taken it to be a title more than a name or a particular person.
     
  11. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Yes. After all, Google is the god of knowledge. :)
     
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  12. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    He is called the first and the last in Revelation. I guess that means he's everything, which is how I see him.
     
    #12 rrobs, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Jn. 14 Christ Jesus says
    12“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father" it is clear to me : Follow My example you become like Me.
     
  14. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    No actual thinking required! Self awareness? Google it!

    How about my awareness that "google it" isnt actually thinking but automatic behavorial response?
    Google it.

    Is "google it" in regards to reality, irelevant?
    Google it.

    The prophets had a name for this blindness. "the golden calf phenomena" they told it in story to poke at the eye that is blind. They werent idiots, no they wrote and spoke to the idiots. They named the idiots sheep! And they were the shepards standing in the blind spot of the sheep. Guiding the flock with their eyes wide open seeing.
     
    #14 David T, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  15. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Active Member

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    The Logos notion is very close to the Jewish concept of the Memra; both are manifestations of God which seems to be modalist theology.

    MEMRA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
     
  16. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Yes. John 1:1 pretty much says just that. The scriptures say many times that Jesus was a perfect representation of God in that he always, without fail, did what his Father wanted him to do. Even died a terrible death despite it not being what he himself wanted. He asked God 2 times if there was some other way, but ended up saying, "not my will, but thine be done."

    All of that is why John 1:14 says the word became flesh. Since an idea or plan, i.e., logos, can not actually be a person, John 1:14 is a beautiful figure of speech that emphasizes just how closely Jesus followed the scriptures.

    None of this actually makes him God. He was the son of God. Unless one is willing to ignore the meaning of simple words, a son can not be his own father.

    1Cor 8:6,

    But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
    Even if the scriptures mentioned a "God the Son" (which they never do), this verse would preclude him from being God. God did all things through Jesus simply means, as I said in the OP, that Jesus was the focal point of the plan (logos), but he was neither the plan itself, nor God.

    Take care.
     
  17. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    John 14:12 is one of my favorite verses. I only regret that as of yet I don't have enough belief in it to actually do all Jesus that did. Perhaps one day I will raise someone from the dead, but probably not today. I have a hard enough time believing to cure myself from a stupid cold.

    Still, as Romans 10:17 says, "...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God," so as I continue my study my faith will undoubtedly grow. Maybe I will raise someone from the dead one of these days. We'll see.
     
  18. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Try to sort out Greek meaning in Romans 10:17.
     
  19. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Oops. Obviously I've hit a sore spot. Sorry about that.

    OK. Forget Google. You could also go to a library or bookstore and get the information on what the word "logos" meant to the 1st century Greek or Hebrew. I'm confident the results will be identical. Although turning off the computer and getting up out of your chair and going to the library is more work (but undoubtedly healthier), the main thing is that you learn what logos means (unless of course you don't care to know, in which case forget the whole thing).

    The only other option I can see is to just make something up about what the word logos meant.
     
  20. rrobs

    rrobs Active Member

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    Faith is often thought of in the sense that when we can't know for sure what someone tells is true or not us we simply have faith in what they say. But according the the scriptures, Romans 10:17, faith is really a trust in something we do know and understand. The more you know about something or somebody the more trust or faith you have in that thing or person. Example:

    A good friend who you've known for many years to be dependable and honest, asks you to lend him $100. He tells you he will pay you back as soon as he receives his next paycheck.

    You are approached on the street by a complete stranger. He asks you to lend him $100. He tells you he will pay you back as soon as he receives his next paycheck.

    In which would you have faith to pay you back?
     
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