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Featured The word and meaning of (A)theist sounds weird to me

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by stvdv, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I am not seeing the problem. It is fairly simple really.

    Many people create or borrow god-concepts that they somehow decide that they believe in.

    Atheists do not.
     
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  2. dmap

    dmap God is good and beautiful

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    "A" means "not". They reject the claim of theists. That's all there is to it. They don't implicitly believe in God because they reject others' claims about such a thing. That argument is nonsense.

    There are many varieties of atheist. We should not assume they are all the same and clump them together.

    Atheists have a reasonable position. We shouldn't belittle them. If anything, we should belittle theists who insist there is a God even though you can't provide any scientific proof. (Actually, we shouldn't belittle anybody. I'm not really saying we should belittle each other.)
     
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  3. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I deny the existence of many things I have a vocabulary for and I don't feel silly for it. For instance I don't believe in Satan, Hell, Valhalla, flat earth or the seven corporeal souls... And my belief in God is a bit different from many definitions.
     
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  4. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @A Vestigial Mote: Very good point. Thank you. Suppose you believe in the "Cringies". If that's a real belief for you then it is true for you. If you are convincing enough it will be true for me also. If you only make it up to proof a point then you don't belief in it yourself. So it's not a truth for you. You won't be too convincing, so won't be a truth for me also.

    Few examples I came across:
    1): I was in a bus, 10year old kid says to driver "run over that cat, we get points for that". True story, this kid was still in his mind in the video games. For him it was real. Quite scary.
    2): Same with brainwashed IS fighters (incl. kids). In their minds its real.
    3): I talked to a minister. He was so convinced that his Baptist way was the only truth and all others goto hell. He is not stupid, 60years, photographic memory, medal of honour by Dutch King. For him it was the ultimate truth. He was not aware of being disrespectful as explained below. That's all.

    Living in this world, our feeling have a kind of truth in them; at least for ourselves. So that's why it's a kind of truth (not the ultimate, universal truth)

    So if you use these 2 lines you don't respect the feeling of the other (tell him his feelings are not true)
    God exist = True
    God exist = False

    But if you use these 2 lines you do respect the feeling of the other
    I believe "God exist = True"
    I believe "God exist = False"

    I think this sums it up, and makes it much clearer then I tried before
     
    #24 stvdv, Apr 3, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @jesus316: Thank you.
    1): You took first line out of context [You didn't copy the rest "It's just a play of words..."].
    2): Totally agree
    3): I don't belittle Atheists.
    @ALL: Thanks for advice. My view is more clear now. And I think I put it better in words in the previous reply above
     
  6. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Although this post sounds a bit over-thought, I happen to think that God is a very "numinous" term for anyone who uses it...as you say it carries with it more meaning than an atheist might want to raise while it indicates more meaning than a theist might be able to rationally explain.

    So what is the source of this extra-ordinary burden of meaning that this term "God" carries? Is it cultural-historical? Is it psychological? Is it miraculous?
     
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  7. Satans_Serrated_Edge

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    And no sense was made that day.
     
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @Jumi: Sorry that I wrote wrong words suggesting people are silly. You were so quick reacting the first time. I did at the same time you replied make a little correction as regard to this line with "silly" in it. Because it didn't feel good. And by the way, the whole point for me is, to make clear that nobody is "silly". If someone believes something that's their truth [denying someone else his truth is silly; I didn't write the person is silly]. That is what I meant, but I admit I wrote it quite clumsy.

    Post #24: The same idea, but I think I finally put it much clearer and simpler what I meant
    The word and meaning of (A)theist sounds weird to me
     
    #28 stvdv, Apr 3, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
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  9. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @sealchan: I think you're right. This post has been chewed on enough.

    But I think it's an interesting idea for a new topic "What is the source of this extra-ordinary burden of meaning that this term "God" carries? Is it cultural-historical? Is it psychological? Is it miraculous?"
     
  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    It's easy to define an imaginary god, just as it's easy to imagine magic.

    But you're right, there's no useful definition of a real god, one with objective existence, such that if we found one we could determine it was indeed a god, or God.

    And I further agree with you, in that when that penny dropped for me, I realized I wasn't an atheist. (I'm an igtheist aka ignostic, but it's not a graceful word.)
     
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  11. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    At least you seem to be admitting that just because it is real for you does not make it real for the rest of us. That would be a completely unrealistic expectation. We all come to the defense of the reality we experience.

    And in my personal experience, people feel that their feelings are being disrespected regardless how you phrase your disbelief in their claims.
     
    #31 A Vestigial Mote, Apr 3, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  12. Cary Cook

    Cary Cook Member

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    The term God is ambiguous, even with the capital G. It can mean, among other things:
    1. Supreme Being: that which created the first created thing
    ___who may or may not be the same as
    2. Creator of this universe
    ___who may or may not be the same as
    3. Creator of mankind
    ___who may or may not be the same as
    4. Judge of mankind
    ___who may or may not be the same as
    5. BibleGod - which can be subdivided into many different versions
     
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  13. Cary Cook

    Cary Cook Member

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    Are you saying that one can't define, or speak of the attributes of, Homer Simpson without automatically admitting that Homer Simpson is real?
     
  14. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Thanks
    Not only do I admit this. That is exactly my whole point. But I also admit that when writing my first post, I didn't see it as clear as I see it now. And still tricky, needing practise.

    Both "I believe God exists" + "I don't believe God exists" can be true simultaneously [both personal expression of the truth]. No conflict here.

    Both "God exist" + "God doesn't exit" can not be true simultaneously [both solid facts]. Knowing this, it makes sense to me to use "I believe God exists (not)" instead of "God exists (not)"

    !!! BUT if the other insists on using the "God exists (not)" phrase, I will just say "yes, yes, yes". No arguments anymore.

    "We all come to the defense of the reality we experience".
    I like that line (and both ways; seen from me, and from the other). So if I want the respect of my experienced reality, then it seems logical to me to grant the same respect to the other [solves also the last line of your quote].

    I better express my beliefs (at least I know what I am talking about). And I better refrain from expressing my disbelief at the other (and why would I ?!!). And of course I can share common ground items.
     
    #34 stvdv, Apr 3, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  15. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Rarely do atheists make the claim that GOD DOES NOT EXIST. As an atheist my position has always been that I have yet to be presented with sufficient demonstrable evidence to support a belief in any god(s). Saying that you have a lack of belief in something is NOT the same as claiming that the something does not exist. It simply means that you don't have sufficient evidence to believe that it does.

    For example, let's say that I have a jar filled to the brim with jellybeans sitting on my desk. If someone came up to me and said, "I know for a fact that there are 4722 jellybeans in that jar. Do you believe me?"

    My answer would be, "No, I don't believe that there are 4722 jellybeans in this jar, because I've seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that it is true."

    Now, by saying that I don't believe that there are 4722 jellybeans in the jar, am I also saying that I believe that it is impossible that there are 4722 jellybeans in the jar? NO. I acknowledge that it's POSSIBLE that there are 4722 jellybeans in the jar. I'm just saying that there isn't sufficient evidence to conclude that there ARE 4722 jellybeans in the jar. The only way that I would say that I believe that there ARE 4722 jellybeans in the jar is if we actually counted them and had EVIDENCE that the number is in fact 4722.

    The same holds true for any claims of a god(s) existence. I don't believe in any god(s) because I've yet to see any convincing EVIDENCE for one. That doesn't mean that I'm saying it's IMPOSSIBLE that someday someone might provide such evidence, only that thus far there has not been sufficient evidence for me to say that there IS a god(s).
     
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  16. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @QuestioningMind: Thanks for the very clear explanation from an atheist point of view. Makes a lot of sense, how you described it. And although I believe in God, I can't show proof too. So I will not say "God exists". And moreover I even don't have a solid definition of God. So my "I believe in God" might sound foolish. Maybe I believe in God, because I have for myself created a definition of God which makes sense. But being scientific, this is all far from scientific.
     
  17. idav

    idav Being
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    Are you trying to say you know unicorns dont exist, you lack belief in unicorns or just saying that babies dont believe in unicorns? Just so we are on the same page.
     
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  18. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    So dragons exist?
    And agnostic is really just A gnostic?

    Your logic here doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.
     
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  19. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    No... not in the slightest. That was the premise of the starting post to this thread. That you can't use the name "God" to argue against the existence of God without admitting that God exists by invoking the name/definition. I was attempting to give a simple example of how false that idea is.
     
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  20. FlyingTeaPot

    FlyingTeaPot Irrational Rationalist. Educated Fool.

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    First of all, welcome to the forums. We're glad to have you here!

    Please apply that logic to the statement "Unicorns do not exist.", and tell me what you conclude. Have a great day! :)
     
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