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Featured The word and meaning of (A)theist sounds weird to me

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by stvdv, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    First of all "Atheist" = "A theist", and is the opposite of what they say they are. Of course, that's just a play of words. But as Freud says "What's in a name". Can be coincidence or play of ....

    God, exist = True
    1 + 2 = 3

    God, exist = False
    1 + 2 = 3

    This is like saying "1+2=3", BUT "1" does not exist. Seems silly?

    I love, My wife = True
    1 2 = 3
    This makes it more clear. Just tell your wife the above AND adding: "BUT Wife does not exist"
    [IF you make it out alive, please share your experience]

    If someone says "God does not exist", then it seems strange to me IF he does have a definition of God {because by definition it exists}. And IF he doesn't have a proper definition of God then it doesn't make sense to make the above statements.

    Like chicken/egg problem [can't deny both, can you?]
    The Atheist creates God the second he denies God; strange.
    The Theist talks about God without solid definition; also bit weird

    Many times I get the feeling it's just 1 big misunderstanding coming from the emotionally charged word "God". Without the word "God", and with words like "respect" and "not judging the others' feeling or believe system" problems arise much less.

    For me the definition of God is: ...

    I read somewhere "The wise remain silent" [bookish knowledge obviously]

    Any thoughts? [bit naughty though!]

    [I'm new here. Try to get my Basics right. Learn a thing or two. I Love harmony, saw already many A's pull T's hairs v.v.]
     
    #1 stvdv, Apr 3, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
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  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  3. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    You do realize that you have to define something before you can say anything about it's existence though, right? I mean, surely you cannot say something either exists or doesn't exist unless you can actually define what it is that you are talking about.
     
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  4. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @ImmortalFlame: Yes, exactly. And making a definition of "God" is not easy (maybe impossible). I get along with atheist very well, if i talk about respect, not critisizing etc. This all humans seem to agree on. War starts when ... ah you know.

    I always used the word God easy. Now I totally get it that others might get upset with the word God, because so much injustice and hypocrazy in name of God. I hope 1 day atheist and theist find common ground instead of war ground. Still a dreamer
     
    #4 stvdv, Apr 3, 2018
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  5. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying everything is true that has a definition? That sounds like a politicians dream, to play around with definitions.
     
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  6. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Unicorns do not exist.
    Seems a logical statement.
     
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  7. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    I don't see a problem here. Stop arguing semantics.
     
  8. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @Tumah: Thanks for the quote "Silence is good for the wise man, a fortiori for the fool".
    I didn't hear that one before; had to google it. Very wise addition indeed. Nice to learn something from Talmud.
     
  9. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
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    from Stvdv,
    "...a definition of God {because by definition it exists}...."

    I don't believe that "God" is a fact of life.
    why refer to `it`, by the word `it` ?
    If we just had the proof....even once !
     
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  10. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @sayak83: Thanks. New here. Didn't even know about "Pluralist". Interesting view.
    @Woberts: Thanks also. "Pastafarian". Had to google that one also. I love all those different views next to each other.

    You both have a point. Semantics is not really interesting. What is real and what not? My sister coincidently believes in unicorns and fairytales, and no she is not 6years. But she lives in Norway is 47years old [seems a Norwegian thing for some people there]. So in her mind it's real. I respect that.
     
    #10 stvdv, Apr 3, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  11. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Well as soon as you say freud you don't understand the topic that's an empirical fact.
     
  12. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    But if they didn't exist there would be no word unicorn. So in some fashion they "exist" Much of modern science is predicated on things that don't actually "exist" physically, to give structuralism to objects and things that exist physically.

    But I understand what you mean as well.
     
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  13. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I don't see it as a chicken/egg problem, I see it as a problem with how humans articulate their thoughts in general... a problem that is exacerbated by a failure to properly address ontological assumptions.

    Sorry, that was boxcar. Let me rephrase.

    Your typical English-speaker has a really simplistic ontology, or way of understanding reality. Something is either put in a category called "real" or a category called "not real." This dualistic ontology grounds the assumptions of many and fails to articulate the ways in which something can be real. A concept defined with words and language is still real in that sense, for example.
     
  14. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    I thought this was the arguing semantics forums. Religious folks are trained in semantic argumentation. it's called theology. A prime example of internal semantic argument in religion below.


    Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
    He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you
    a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too!

    Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too!

    What denomination?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

    Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

    Northern Conservative Baptist
    or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
    He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

    Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

    Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
     
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  15. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @mud: Why I used the word 'it'? --> I didn't specifically mean "God". Just making a definition about anything will create "it" [= anything], at least in your own mind.

    Good for you "mud". I am also not the 'hide and seek' kind of guy. If God exists then show me please, I always said (even when I was 10 I was always interested in death and what is happening). I tried out twice. No water no food till confirmation. First time went quite smooth (got confirmation before getting myself in big trouble). Second time I almost died and "God" gave me quite a clear and obvious warning "if you don't eat you go into coma". So obviously I didn't get to see the other side[got back, just before], at least I went quite a way. And it was amazing and beautiful experience without pain. If I can choose I would go this way in the end. Of course life is full of surprises, so I never can be sure what happens.

    I really wish you get your proof.
    [Wherever I use the word "God" know that I also don't know. I just find it a convenient and short word for this mysterie nobody is 100% sure about]
     
    #15 stvdv, Apr 3, 2018
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  16. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    I don't think it's really possible to define "God," as in whoever or whatever caused this universe and our existence to come into being.

    I don't think atheists "create God," though. As a concept, gods and goddesses have existed for millennia, with people being born, raised, and conditioned to believe in them. They are a significant part of our culture and civilization that it's literally impossible for anyone to be born and grow up in this society without being initiated into some concept of "God" at some point.

    If there was no concept of God or the supernatural, and people just accepted nature as is, then they would likely be atheists by default, but then there wouldn't be any particular need to call themselves "atheist."

    It may be that "atheist" is an imperfect term. Language is imperfect. I generally call myself "agnostic," but I do like exploring many imaginative possibilities of what might be out there.

    I don't think it's really a question of whether such a thing as "God" really does exist or doesn't exist, as if it's an either/or question. I tend to think that human conceptions of "God" are totally our own contrivances, though. That doesn't negate the possibility that there might be a "God," but whatever humans come up with it or opine on the subject is just speculation and conjurations of an active imagination.

    Human history is replete with myths, legends, folklore, superstitions, stories of gods, demons. I suppose one could pick one out of all of them and say, "This is the one that must be true" while discarding all the others as BS. If someone says that none of them are true, that might make them an "atheist," but not because they "created God" just to reject the concept. They just heard some stories that didn't seem true.
     
  17. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @DavidT: I got a feeling and put it in words. Obviously not the right words reading your words [Freud ..]. But your story afterwards showed beautifully what my feeling was when writing this topic "Is it really that important to push someone over for such a reason (in the name of God even)?". Thanks.
    @Quintessence: I believe spiritual life is simple [slowly getting there]. I love your nicely decorated quote under your reply, really beautiful and good quote.
     
    #17 stvdv, Apr 3, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    @Stevicus: Thanks for sharing. Good reminder "but whatever humans come up with it or opine on the subject is just speculation and conjurations of an active imagination". Keeps me humble and not judging others so quick.

    @ALL: thank you so much. I visited a baptist church for a few years. From day 1 I was treated as beautifully described in @DavidT's story above. Only judging others and my views. Just now here for 2 days, and I feel such a relieve. Like feeling at home. All different views, but for me it's enriching. Learning a lot and above all seeing how important "respect" is. Without respect there is no love is my experience. So thank you all very much, for your nice and friendly sharing on my first topic.
     
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    stvdv
    Maybe 1 big misunderstanding. If you use vocabulary "God", it feels silly to deny God's existence.

    @Jumi: No I talked only about the word "God". I did play a little with definitions (as I explained) to make my point. But I feel there is some truth (from worldly perspective) in it. If someone says "I have a headache", I take this serious, this is respect. Same with God. If other feels/believes in God, I respect this. Other way round the Theist should also respect Atheist for not believing in God. Then there is mutual respect. If not then there starts irritation. And having been in churches quite a bit, I have to admit that the worst disrespect I have seen there.

    So that's what I meant with "feels silly to deny God's existence if the word exist", coming from a feeling as described above. But it goes both ways, for atheist and theist. Because there is so much fighting still between atheist and theist, I found it "funny" and maybe not a coincidence that atheist = a theist. That was about it. Hope this made it clearer.
     
  20. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    It's actually very easy to understand. It's other people's use of the word God, and what they then go on to tell you it means, or what it is supposed to represent that ends up being contentious. Had no one told me what "God" supposedly is/was then why would I EVER have used the word myself? Why would I ever have made an argument against "God's" existence if I was never told that He supposedly exists?

    It would be exactly the same if I told you that, within YOUR OWN RELIGION, there was a secret sect called the "Cringies", and that all monetary proceeds to the religious organization were being skimmed from and used to fund their endeavors. Their mission is the breeding of a master race.

    Now... you would have never heard of this term "Cringies" before, but once I tell you, you have. Would it then seem strange for you to denounce my claim as false and argue against the existence of the "Cringies" within your religion? I mean, you have to use the word to argue against me succinctly, right? And didn't you basically say that if you use the name or a definition for something, you are in fact admitting it is real? Isn't that what you're claiming? Can you now see how strange that is?
     
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