Cooky
Veteran Member
Or is it: In their quest for continued power, these politicians are openly disregarding all of their oppositions opinions and concerns.
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The Wisconsin power grab is part of a bigger Republican attack on democracy
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Or is it: In their quest for continued power, these politicians are openly disregarding all of their oppositions opinions and concerns.
I begin to think that there are many who take the advantages of democracy for granted. And that there are many that don't really understand what a democracy is. They grew up with strong, democratic institutions and have not experienced what it might be like to live without them. They can't process or understand what it might be like to not have them, so they do not panic when they are undermined or assaulted. As far as I'm aware, America has never been a true democracy within my lifetime, but some of the shifts that have been happening lately are... surreal. Values I was taught are core to this country are being upended. If this is how my culture looses its collective mind when times are pretty darned good, I am very afraid of how things will play out as the impacts of various mismanagement worsens.
The opinions and concerns of the voters who voted for a change, stripping the new governor of powers assures little change.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Republicans well know that demographics and time are making winning more difficult for them, so they've obviously decided that it no longer is "It's not whether you win or lose but how you play the game" but much more of "Win at any cost!".
Hey, with 81% of Republicans still supporting Trump in the last poll I saw, what should we expect?
Hey, with 81% of Republicans still supporting Trump in the last poll I saw, what should we expect?
Au contraire, bruderherz....democracy is all about each side trying to undermine the other.
Some have the mistaken notion that democracy is noble & fair.
It's not.
It's just the masses steering government...not always in the direction we want.
I sympathize.
But the other side has been trying to do its damage too.
(Individual definitions of "damage" will vary.)
Aye, the twins of sincerity & hypocrisy flow in both directions.
Daemon Sophic
Avatar in flux
Daemon Sophic
Avatar in flux
Every time the Republicans (or what party calls itself ‘Republican’) do this, there are always those who claim “well the left does the same all the time......yet......you never present examples of equivalent malefaction.
I recall a discussion of right-wing propoganda on most TV channels several years back, and the best the righties could come back with as an equivalent was “well they slammed the VP for spelling ‘potatoes’ wrong.”
I await your scorn of the call “false equivalency”! ....along with your failure to find a democratic-party-controlled legislature defanging an incoming conservative governor, or anything close to this bad by democrats within the last 50 years.
PS. —. I don’t even know. I’m really curious if the dems have honestly done anything this underhanded in the last half-century.
Daemon Sophic
Avatar in flux
A tangentially related article —> here <— while trying to research an answer to my own preceding post.
Tangential because it is a run-down of the criminal cases against federal admin officials, and not of underhanded political maneuvers like....saaayyy, gerrymandering....or failing to review candidates for the SCOTUS (justice delayed is justice denied).....or....a president maintaining his business dealings while manipulating laws that influence said dealings. To name a few. Really, anything on those levels would be close to equivalence for Wisconsin’s legislative corruption.
Go ahead.
Tangential because it is a run-down of the criminal cases against federal admin officials, and not of underhanded political maneuvers like....saaayyy, gerrymandering....or failing to review candidates for the SCOTUS (justice delayed is justice denied).....or....a president maintaining his business dealings while manipulating laws that influence said dealings. To name a few. Really, anything on those levels would be close to equivalence for Wisconsin’s legislative corruption.
Go ahead.
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Nope.
That's partisanship at the expense of democracy and the best interests of the people.
BS.
Show me something from the Dems on the level of the Clinton Impeachment Circus and then I will stop referring to you as the King of the False Equivalency.
Tom
Typical?
Show me a comparable power grab by the Dems.
Not just any, comparable.
Because I don't see them.
Tom
Shad
Veteran Member
Yes.
Dems trying to remove executive authority regarding Mueller as an officer of the executive branch thus under the authority of the executive branch headed by POTUS.
Wrong
Because you never looked.
youknowme
Whatever you want me to be.
I don't see how that is a power grab for the Democrats, since both Mueller and Trump are Republicans. Furthermore those efforts are coming from both sides of Congress and it is expressly Congress's job to provide a check on the powers of the Executive Branch.
youknowme
Whatever you want me to be.
Limiting the Presidency powers to interfere with criminal investigations concerning the Presidency seems like common sense to me and a win win for both parties. I really do not understand why people have a problem with this one. It is something that should have been done a long time ago.
Shad
Veteran Member
As the legislative branch is trying to restrict the executive. The move was done by Dems not the GOP.
Nope.
By using legislation to challenge constitution power bypassing the constitutional law required to amend Constitution. So it is even worse than the OP example as the move was done by unconstitutional methods. Yup their job is to ignore the laws which they govern by. You got me!
This is the false false equivalency fallacy.Every time the Republicans (or what party calls itself ‘Republican’) do this, there are always those who claim “well the left does the same all the time......yet......you never present examples of equivalent malefaction.
I recall a discussion of right-wing propoganda on most TV channels several years back, and the best the righties could come back with as an equivalent was “well they slammed the VP for spelling ‘potatoes’ wrong.”
I await your scorn of the call “false equivalency”! ....along with your failure to find a democratic-party-controlled legislature defanging an incoming conservative governor, or anything close to this bad by democrats within the last 50 years.
PS. —. I don’t even know. I’m really curious if the dems have honestly done anything this underhanded in the last half-century.
Why?
- One person's "underhanded" is another's "righteous".
You & I won't always agree which is which.
- I could paint the Democrats as worse than (certainly not
equivalent to) Republicans, their being bad notwithstanding.
- In subjective matters (due to different perspectives & values),
your presumption that Dems are better is non-factual....just opinion.
You want an example of underhanded Democrats?
Al Gore tried in 2000 to block overseas military ballots, ostensibly
because they arrived too late, but actually because they were
likely to favor the opposition.
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youknowme
Whatever you want me to be.
Well nothing has actually been done, and that is part of the problem. There are absolutely some Republican Senators trying to prod Congress in to action concerning this over reach of Presidential powers; however, a battle with Trump over this could be politically damaging and so many Republicans just want to try to wait things out. In the long run, considering current events now or not, this really would be the best move for the country. The President should not have this level of influence over a criminal investigation that includes the President. It is just common sense, and one day the Republicans are going to regret not acting when they had the chance.
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Must you turn every disagreement into a TDS cat fight?
Examples of bad Democrat behavior:
They tolerated Bill Clinton's sexual predation with barely a peep from those who should've
decried it. They feign feminism, yet they attacked & tolerated sexist attacks on women he
victimized ("trailer trash", "bimbo"). This was worse than Republicans impeaching Clinton
for perjury, suborning perjury, & obstructing justice. Note they didn't convict Bill.
And now Democrats are chomping at the bit to prosecute Trump & all
around him. For Trump, they don't even know what they want to charge
him with. They just hope & presume that they'll find something....anything.
One could also argue there's no equivalency, false or otherwise, since Dems
are worse. But I won't go there because (aside from being murky) it should
be about opposing what is wrong, not a contest to argue who is worse in
order to exculpate the home team using the lesser malefactor defense.
Face it.....you have opinions...not "The Truth".
But I won't say you're wrong. You're not even wrong.
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Cooky
Veteran Member
It's not like it was a landslide victory either. In which case, it's not ethical to turn everything upside down when merely half the state is in opposition.
...I could see maybe with 3/4 of the state being for this "change". But ethically, there should be very little change when a mere fraction of swing voters swing in the other direction.