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Featured The will of Jesus vs. the will of God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ideogenous_mover, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    the book describes two different wills
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    It is not my statements that are convincing it is the words of Jesus Christ. I have seen no citations of the words of Jesus that indicate it is different.

    Yes two different wills, but Jesus clearly acknowledges that His will is completely subservient to God.
     
    #22 shunyadragon, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  3. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    He indicates that he his somewhat under a degree of strain in order to comply with the other will. Complete subservience would cause such an acknowledgment to be superfluous
     
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    It is not my statements that are convincing it is the words of Jesus Christ. I have seen no citations of the words of Jesus that indicate it is different.
     
  5. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I would say Jesus and God are one in purpose, but in their respective positions about the atonement they would express it from their point of view.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    By implication, it must....how else could satan have rebelled but to abuse his free will. How could the first humans have chosen to disobey their God in full knowledge of the consequences if they did not have free will?

    The desires of the flesh could not be tempted without free will. Logic 101.

    The desires of the flesh were natural desires, only with the introduction of sin were human desires warped. Satan plays on our natural desires and distorts them into something offensive to God.

    How did satan tempt Jesus? With the same desires that tempted himself. He began by tempting Jesus to produce food for himself because he had fasted for 40 days. The miraculous gifts of the spirit were never to be used selfishly.

    The desire for world rulership......coupled with the desire for worship....these things undid that rebel angel.

    So nothing has changed...satan still uses....gluttony...immorality....worship....desire for things that are self benefiting to keep tempting humans to disobey their God. It has worked for him since Eden.

    John 10:31-33
    "Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”

    The Jews were not legally allowed to execute anyone, (John 18:31) so the Jewish leaders had to fabricate a breach of Roman law in order to have him done away with. This was the charge that they brought against him even though Pilate found him "NOT GUILTY" of any breach of Roman law. (John 18:33-40) It was only when the Jews threatened to report him to Caesar for sedition that he washed his hands of Jesus' blood and handed him over, throwing in a good whipping to appease the crowd, who chanted..."we have no King but Caesar".
     
  7. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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  8. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    I think the Holy Ghost has been invented to resolve such ties. No surprise God is a Trinity.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  9. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    I think Jesus was essentially the sort of part of God most connected to people. While others portions loved people but had to juggle the universe (a juggler is watching the crowd but can't really talk to them, you know?), or busy being part of human souls (yes, this is what the Holy Spirit is, God in us), Jesus really had no other goal than to be connected to humanity.

    So suddenly rather than a temporary presence that took on different forms, he's linked to humanity in a very direct way, and he knows that to really be directly linked to us, he has to be born and die (crucifixion, was not strictly speaking necessary, but it helped fulfill prophecy and show ppl what he was about). But being human, he very much wants to live.
     
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  10. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    Christ prayed (as recorded in scripture) that -if possible -that "cup" (being crucified) might pass from him -but that he would do it if it were God's will.

    It is written elsewhere that Christ -as a human -began to understand who he was over time (did not have that knowledge from birth -but began to know things from a young age).
    However, before he was human, he knowingly and willingly agreed to what he was to go through. Not doing it definitely crossed his mind, but what it would accomplish would be infinitely greater (especially considering that the suffering of this time will eventually no longer be remembered or called to mind -that ALL THINGS will be made NEW).

    Wrath would not be an issue, because he was willing and in agreement. Even if he did not agree to it beforehand, wrath would likely not be an issue because he was not actually doing anything wrong -and changing his mind on the most basic level wasn't apparently a consideration. It was necessary for Christ to become like us in order to eventually make us like himself ("the firstborn of many brethren") and the father -so there was a lot riding on it -but God and Christ "counted the cost" beforehand -and then proceeded to create man -eventually to be made like God.

    (In contrast, God was wrathful with Israel, etc., after they had made a covenant and Israel broke it -sinned greatly, etc. -but even that wrath will work good for them eventually.
    Even the "slain of the Lord" will eventually live forever.)

    Independent will is the whole big enchilada -the whole reason for making billions of new, self-aware beings... HOWEVER.... it would be an absolutely horrific mess if all of those independent wills were not BROUGHT TO the point of agreement AND ABILITY to willingly obeying the universal law of love which allows for infinite creativity and joy without conflict.
    Independent will does not supersede logic and fact. Some say God gave us free will -and that is not altogether untrue -but what he specifically did was give us a choice between LIFE and DEATH, BLESSING AND CURSING. We can obey the law of love -have life and blessing because that is what it produces... or we can choose death and cursing -because that is what sin produces. Many of the harsh things God has done have actually sped up the process and kept the misery and cursing to an absolute minimum -whereas allowing all to go their own way forever would be a universal nightmare worse than death.

    We actually have a limited time to choose and experience evil. We MUST choose life if we are to continue to live.

    FREE WILL CANNOT BE APPLIED TO UNIVERSAL LAW EXCEPT TEMPORARILY -TO EVENTUALLY OBEY IT WILLINGLY BECAUSE WE LEARN IT MUST BE DONE BY EXPERIENCING OTHERWISE (actually, CONSIDERING otherwise without experiencing it would be ideal, but some are not thereby convinced). IT IS NOT A LONG TERM OPTION.
    FREE WILL IS OTHERWISE TO BE APPLIED TO CREATIVITY.
    "WILL" is "CHOICE" -and choice is at the core of creativity. LAW keeps creativity from making a nightmarish mess and considers all.
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    @LightofTruth Can you please edit your post so that I can respond.....thank you.
     
  12. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Deeje said:

    By implication, it must....how else could satan have rebelled but to abuse his free will. How could the first humans have chosen to disobey their God in full knowledge of the consequences if they did not have free will?

    The desires of the flesh could not be tempted without free will. Logic 101.

    LightofTruth said:
    Wrong again. James says that every man is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own desires. That means that the flesh itself has desires which don't care about any law. That's not called "free will". It's called "sin in the flesh" and "lust of the flesh".

    Deeje said:
    The desires of the flesh were natural desires, only with the introduction of sin were human desires warped. Satan plays on our natural desires and distorts them into something offensive to God.

    LightofTruth said:
    The Scripture NEVER says that human desires were warped only after sin.The fact that Adam and Eve did sin, shows that their desires were warped before they sinned.
     
  13. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
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    All because they ate some figs !
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Please show where?
     
  15. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Ok. That's kind of a new one. But then how can satan traditionally rebel
     
  16. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
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    Ahhhh....IMAGINATION....WONDEROUS !!
     
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  17. OtherSheep

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    Jesus says it's the Father's will that we believe His beloved Son. And Jesus says that the words He spoke to us through His Discipled Apostles were the very words of God the Father. Jesus says that if we've seen Him, we've seen the Father, because they two are one. Their two wills, as you would have it, are working in tandem. And if we take His yoke upon us, we shall be part of that tandem... we will all be one -- of one mind.

    If it is Thy will, may this cup be taken from Me... Jesus didn't want to give up the Holy Spirit, didn't want to be separated from our heavenly Father, didn't want to know that the ones He loved would cry because He had died and was gone from them... "nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou". The Good Shepherd lays down His life for His sheep in the amazing chapter 10 of John's Gospel.

    Jesus didn't want to be ridiculed and spat upon by heathens, didn't want to be rejected by the nation of which He was King, didn't want to be scourged by a man who KNEW THAT HE WAS the King of the Jews... and therefore guilt-free. ..."but for this cause came I unto this hour."

    Didn't want unbelievers to deny His words, His Name and Authority... Jesus says He gave His life, no one took it from Him. That if He asked for thousands of angels to keep Him from being taken from God's vineyard and killed by Satan's synagogue, God would grant it to Him. Jesus says that He laid down His life and that He would raise it up again. God the Son's powers were equal to those of God the Father, before the incarnation on behalf of His sheep.

    God doesn't want puppets, He wants willing children. Jesus is only example of this free and exalted will. He spoke His prayers aloud, so that we would know, and act accordingly

    ___________
    Saul of Tarsus, on the other hand, is more honored by nominal Christians, who don't worry their heads about Paul's constantly rattling chains. When that alone should have warned them that the angel of light on the Damascus road looks an awful lot like the idol Beast of Revelation.
    People who think repentance isn't a prerequisite, must also think that enforced evangelism is equally godly. But even broken clocks are right twice a day, and that was enough for them.
     
    #37 OtherSheep, Nov 5, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  18. OtherSheep

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    Matt.26:39 And He went a little further, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].

    Matt.26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done.

    John.12:27 Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
     
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  19. OtherSheep

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    Abraham was willing to let God provide the sacrifice... because he now believed that Isaac was the son of the promise.
    Moses was adopted by Pharoah's daughter... kinda hafta wonder about the crocodiles, tho.
    Noah cursed the land where the grapes grew, upon which He had gotten drunk and ridiculed by the only son who hadn't been forewarned... dignity? Noah believed God... maybe God had warned others first, who hadn't believed and bought the lumber... in Sumeria?!?
    Jonah refused to warn Nineveh... and learned acceptance in the belly of the beast. Good thing for us, since the libraries of Nineveh are amazing.

    In John 12, Jesus says His Father gave Him commandment, what He should speak; and He knew His Father's words were eternal life, therefore those are the words Jesus spoke. The Prophets are meant to be inspirational, because the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus.
    But the testimony of Jesus is more than the Sermon on the Mount which tells us what God has always said, and explains what God has always meant.
    The flesh and blood of the New Covenant are the Word made Flesh and the Blood of the Life of Christ. The Flesh is the commandment God gave His Son to give to us... by those words are we made clean. The Blood is the daily life of Jesus and His words and actions to those He meets... and it is also the afterlife... by which we believe what He says and act upon that belief. 'I know thy works, and set before you an open door that no one may shut.'

    Jesus knew what He was doing when He took the job. He knew what was about to happen to Him, prayed for the cup to fall... but ultimately knew there was no other way to save His sheep. He is the Seed of the woman* who will bruise the head of Satan.

    John.12:27 "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."

    John.10:15 "As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down My life for the sheep."
    John.10:27-29 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave [them] Me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of My Father's hand."

    ____________
    *The woman is Eve, so the woman clothed with the sun in Rev.12, is also Eve.

    Saul of Cilicia's oriental contempt for women doesn't chose to recognize this fact. Eve isn't redeemed by birthin' babes and cookin' casseroles, but by the Resurrection of her Seed. Just as Saul claims for Adam, and skips regarding Eve.
     
    #39 OtherSheep, Nov 5, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. If Jesus asks that God’s will happens, I think they have the same will, because Jesus wants God’s will to happen.
     
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