1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Wild Experiment That Showed Evolution in Real Time

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Kangaroo Feathers, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    20,272
    Ratings:
    +8,454
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    You might be surprised by how many Buddhist scientists there are, but Buddhism and Science are different domains, not different outlooks on the same thing.
     
  2. Amanaki

    Amanaki sotāpanna

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    2,844
    Ratings:
    +1,534
    Religion:
    Cultivator of Buddha Dhamma
    Thru meditation and countless hours study the buddhist texts I have understood the cosmos to be a lot older then science see it, not only that but even i have not seen many earths/ universes Before this current one both buddha and other spiritual teachers hs spoken about 81 cosmos before this one. But i do not have a proof of it ofcourse. Same with older civilizations.
    Because of the cultivation of mind and body is personal journey and the nswers is given to the person who cultivate and not to all the world in the same time how can one give proof? Spiritual is only about proof to one self then if or when one get full enlightenent and actually can explain this things so others understand then it is possible to do so, just like Buddha or jesus did.

    Religion is not about give answers in a scientific way, it is wisdom from within the knowing that has no doubt. But i can talk about this for ages and nobody would believe me or think i say correct :)

    You are right in that science is something i dont use often, because those answers i look for is within the religion or within the meditation practice.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    7,453
    Ratings:
    +5,042
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Well this is awkward.

    Religious behavior in animals - Wikipedia
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Amanaki

    Amanaki sotāpanna

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    2,844
    Ratings:
    +1,534
    Religion:
    Cultivator of Buddha Dhamma
    I think you misunderstood what i tried to say.
    Animals can not cultivate toward a higher level of spirituality. in our realm that is only the humans who can do. But an animl can become a human being in the next life, that is possible.
     
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    21,509
    Ratings:
    +11,802
    Religion:
    Atheist
    And this is a huge problem for you. Meditation is not evidence. In fact what it does for many is to only reinforce one's errors. In the sciences one of the most reasonable questions that a scientist has to ask himself is "What reasonable test could show that I am wrong?" A scientist does not only come up with an idea that explains what he observes, and cherry picking is not allowed , he has to think of observations that would show him to be wrong. If he did not do this he would not be a scientist. It is why they can definitively claim to have evidence, where you do not appear to have any.

    Though your religious viewpoints may help you relate to others better than if you did not have them, they have misled you in regards to the physical world.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Amanaki

    Amanaki sotāpanna

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    2,844
    Ratings:
    +1,534
    Religion:
    Cultivator of Buddha Dhamma
    Meditation give "evidence" to in the cultivation, that is enough to me
    I am less interested in the physical world, i dont take part in sosiety or get out a lot nymore, because what most of my time goes to is cultivation of buddhism. but i dont ask others to do as i do, other people chooses their path in life.

    your statement about meditation only reinfoce one`s own error is not a true statement. meditation calms the mind so we can see clear what is needed to be done in the cultivation, but not as much in the physical world.

    But i dont mind people want to live in the physical world and not in the spiritul world, that is their own chose,

    Personally i do not have doubt about the buddhist teaching
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    21,509
    Ratings:
    +11,802
    Religion:
    Atheist
    The problem is that it really is not evidence. Your beliefs brought about by meditation are testable and can be shown to be wrong.

    Have you considered that you may be misapplying your Buddhist beliefs?
     
  8. Amanaki

    Amanaki sotāpanna

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    2,844
    Ratings:
    +1,534
    Religion:
    Cultivator of Buddha Dhamma
    Meditation is a technique tought by the buddha, no i have no doubt in it, and after 20 years as a meditator my self i seen what the meditation has benefitted me. but one must prctice it one self to understand it, only reading about it is noth enough to grasp the wisdom that meditation can lead to. an one must follow the teachings (in my case buddhism) to better one self in the way that was teached.

    I can not ask you or others to understand my way of life, and you do have many valid questions. but religion and science are far from each other in the way it is practiced and how it affect people.
    Faith is not a wrong way neighter is science a wrong way. just two paths leading toward same quest, finding answers.
     
  9. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    7,689
    Ratings:
    +3,773
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    4. Those who see what science reveals as complementary to spiritual understanding, and vice versa, that spirituality informs how we understand science. Many Buddhists feel this way, including the Dalai Lama who has stated,

    Buddhist teachings stress the importance of understanding reality. Therefore, we should pay attention to what modern scientists have actually found through experiment and through measurement the things they have proved to be reality.

    A Collaboration Between Science and Religion | The 14th Dalai Lama
    ....

    “If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”

    ― Dalai Lama XIV, The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality

    I would be included in option #4.

    Older in what sense? I think you do not understand the Theory of Evolution, apparently. What we call "human beings" is what exactly? What science describes is "modern man" as differentiated from early forms of hominids. Homo Sapiens is a specific species, a branch on the evolutionary tree. Are you suggesting that the species Homo Sapiens is older than what science indicates? Science estimates around 300,000 years old, possibly even 500,000 years ago. Are you suggesting older than than, say several billions of years? This would not fit anything that science can confirm, and would violate everything we do know solidly about the natural world.

    IT's not going to happen that something so against all established science, like claiming mountains are not made of minerals but really hard cotton candy, for instance, is not ever going to happen. To suddenly say modern man evolved on dry land simultaneously alongside the creatures of the sea during the Cambrian Explosion 541 million years ago, is pure fantasy. It is utterly impossible. It is utterly nonscientific.

    That is not true at all. Are you are learning your science from Creationists, who do not understand science? There is a considerable wealth of information available demonstrating transitional forms for all animals, modern man included. Timeline of human evolution - Wikipedia

    BTW, we didn't "come from apes", we are part of the ape families.

    A hominoid, commonly called an ape, is a member of the superfamily Hominoidea: extant members are the gibbons (lesser apes, family Hylobatidae) and the hominids. A hominid is a member of the family Hominidae, the great apes: orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and humans.

    Hominidae - Wikipedia

    As a Buddhist, you should be interesting in knowing about the natural world. I would advise however not talking to Creationists, as they are science-deniers, and Buddhism should be interested in truth, not protecting personal beliefs from challenge. Denialism is never part of a valid spiritual path. Ever.

    Multiple problems here. First, we are anatomically absolutely animals. We're not minerals or vegetables, or inert gasses or some other classification. We are very much part of the animal kingdom.

    That humans have spirituality is part of our evolution as a species of animals. While you correctly say that a non-human animal cannot learn spiritual teachings, that means nothing. They can't learn any other human ideas and conceptions of reality either. They are not fitted with language in the way we are, conceptualize reality with the human mind, etc.

    However, to say they do not experience what we call the "spiritual", is purely a speculation of the human mind as a matter of hubris, imagining that we are outside of nature somehow, that we are the center of the universe, that animals of the field are just blind machines unaware of their own existence or experience of life. That is false on many levels. Animals show emotions. They experience grief and loss as we do. They become depressed and happy. They experience the same things we do, and in fact what we have at higher more advanced levels of sophistication, are built upon what emerged earlier in other species that share the same lineage as we do.

    You see reasoning in animals. Tool usage. Problem solving. Bonding. Grieving. Socialization, and on and on. We did not abruptly appear completely different or separate from the natural world from which we emerged. What differentiates us is really simply a matter of degrees of complexity and sophistication of these things which existed in nature before us. As far as spirituality goes, I believe animals do experience the spiritual as well, just held in the mind of an animal, in whatever way that is held in their spheres of reality, to whatever degrees they can hold that.
     
    #49 Windwalker, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  10. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    5,595
    Ratings:
    +2,884
    Religion:
    atheist
    Did your buddah explain where the "something creating the situation" came from?





    Well, that's good, no scientist believes that either.
     
  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    10,282
    Ratings:
    +9,646
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    By focusing inwards, you create an echo chamber with only yourself in it. As we know, such echo chambers tend to produce very poor information. The fact that you have a calm mind doesn't change this basic fact.

    To get real knowledge, you have to look *outward* and not just inward (which is necessary also).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,076
    Ratings:
    +636
    Religion:
    nature
    But humans are apes. We diverged and developed differently than the other apes but we remain apes.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,076
    Ratings:
    +636
    Religion:
    nature
    Of course we are animals. How do you know what animals can learn or not?
     
    • Like Like x 4
  14. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,076
    Ratings:
    +636
    Religion:
    nature
    How do you know which direction it goes? What evidence do you have about the spirituality of animals. Are you basing you answers on what humans have written or from experience from the animals umwelt?
    Of course there are human writings with a different perspective. In Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy I believe the mice were in control.
     
  15. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    15,001
    Ratings:
    +7,410
    Religion:
    Atheist
    @Kangaroo Feathers

    Not too much to say on this, but thanks for linking, I enjoyed the article. Interesting stuff.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  16. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    7,453
    Ratings:
    +5,042
    Religion:
    Catholic
    I'm very pleased people are finding it interesting. Thank you for saying so.
     
  17. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    10,282
    Ratings:
    +9,646
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    How do you know? Many animals have aspects of ritual in their lives. I know my cat does. We have evidence of chimps having proto-religion as well as evidence in elephants.

    But I will go further. Spirituality isn't a positive: it is a negative. It focuses inward, which is the direction of self-delusion, as opposed to outward, which is the direction of knowledge. it produces myths to explain away difficulties as opposed to science to actually explain and test them.

    So, if animals manage to miss this detour, more power to them!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    10,282
    Ratings:
    +9,646
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    And given the wide variety of religious views, it is the position supported by the evidence.
     
  19. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    5,595
    Ratings:
    +2,884
    Religion:
    atheist
    Then why do you go against these teachings?

    http://www.buddhivihara.org/buddhism-and-darwins-theory-of-evolution/
    Buddhism and Darwin’s Theory of Evolution


    By D. Amarasiri Weeraratne

    It was over a hundred years ago that Darwin presented his theory of Biological Evolution. This epoch-making and far reaching discovery undermined the foundation of religion in the West. Christian priests in England were alarmed and took the offensive against Darwin and his “Theory of Evolution”. Darwin faced all such ill informed and fanatical attacks with courage and calmness. Attempts to silence him with money also failed. ...

    Charles Darwin showed that all living organisms are related members of one connected system and that higher forms of life have gradually evolved from the lower forms. ...
    Today, the scientific world accepts Darwin’s theory and
    treats it with respect. It is now a subject for study for all students of the natural sciences.

    Although Darwin’s Theory of Evolution shattered the foundations of Western religion and reduced Christianity to a shipwreck, it has not harmed or affected Buddhism in any way. Quite the opposite, it is in accordance with the Buddha’s teachings, given so long ago, and so, has confirmed the wisdom of the Buddha’s teachings.

    In the Agganna Sutra we find the Buddha referring to a process of evolution by which means life developed. The idea of evolution is consonant with the teachings of the Buddha and is quite acceptable to the Buddhist; the findings of science fit in and do not contradict the fundamentals of his religion.
    ...
    Therefore, Darwin’s theory is in accordance with the Buddha’s saying ( or Dictum): “Sabbe sankhara Dukkha” –all life is suffering (or unsatisfactory). This is confirmed as true in the light of modern scientific understanding.​
     
  20. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    7,721
    Ratings:
    +5,813
    Religion:
    Christian
    I'm just curious how he convinced the drummer for Black Sabbath (Bill Ward) to help with the experiment. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...