1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The watchmaker

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Jul 9, 2018.

Tags:
  1. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2018
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +60
    Religion:
    Catholic
    He believed in the first cause:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/god-does-not-play-dice-quote-meaning-2015-11
    Einstein of course believed in mathematical laws of nature, so his idea of a God was at best someone who formulated the laws and then left the universe alone to evolve according to these laws," physicist Vasant Natarajan wrote in an essay.

    Note the author's 'at best' (someONE)to his reluctant admission of the fact, lol.

    But meantime I'm quite gobsmackedly amused to find myself trying to move water with a sieve in an interfaith website populated mainly by people who loathe the word 'God' and despise those who use the word, while at the same time vehemently insisting that they're not at all interested in the subject. Weird ...

    I'm sure it's been said before.
     
    #141 ERLOS, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  2. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,001
    Ratings:
    +279
    Religion:
    i am not
    I think the 'deserted beach' represents an 'absence of apparent watch-makers' and not an 'absence of design'. The spirit of the analogy is that even though there are no apparent watch-makers, the presence of the watch indicates there must be a watch-maker.

    Moreover, the reasoning that the 'absence of design' is a necessary backdrop for observing the 'presence of design' is like saying that the 'absence of energy' is a necessary backdrop for observing the 'presence of energy'. It turns out that energy is everywhere and absolute zero is a theoretical that has yet to be observed. The design or lack of design of the beach is not relevant to the analogy.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    3,562
    Ratings:
    +2,220
    Religion:
    ?
    But why not posit an absence of apparent "sand makers?" There's sand on the beach also. is there not? What makes it so much less alluring to cite in the analogy than the watch? Do you understand where I am going with that question? It is to point out that you are singling out the watch SPECIFICALLY because as humans we have experience with it having been created. And so, with that experience in mind, of course we guess that there is a watch-maker somewhere. But what experience do we have with CREATED UNIVERSES? I argue that we have none at all. So we can't make the distinction between a universe that had to have a creator, and one that didn't. We don't even have experience with the TRUE CONDITIONS of our own universe, for goodness sake.

    It's a form of straw-man. It's easy to show that a watch had to have a creator... so you "knock down" the idea of an un-created watch, then posit that the universe is even more complex than the watch and say that you have also "knocked down" the un-created universe!

    If a land were completely foreign to you - let's say an alien planet, with alien flora and fauna - would you be so quick to judge what was "made" versus "natural?" You couldn't be, because you have no experience. And the "realm of god" is just such an alien sphere - I would hazard to say it is entirely unknowable.

    As an example of something tricky to classify that is found here on Earth, bismuth crystals:
    [​IMG]
    Doesn't this look "man-made?" And yet it is completely naturally occurring - in fact, unlike a seashell or feather, there isn't even life or sentience behind its formation or symmetries at all! Here we have an example in which we maintain a complete absence of "bismuth-crystal makers", and without any other knowledge, one could very easily (and very wrongly) assume that there had to be some sort of maker at work here as well.

    Now you know this isn't accurate. Lesser presence of energy is most certainly required in order to discern higher presence of energy. Not necessarily complete absence... but difference. In fact, to measure nearly anything at all takes there being difference to contrast against. If every object in existence were the very same watch, for example - what difference would it make coming across a watch amidst a sea of watches? Which is why the lack of design of the beach, and its desertedness, are INCREDIBLY important to the analogy. You're asking the reader/hearer of the analogy to think about what it is like to stumble upon an object and be forced to admit that it is obviously created - but they can only make that distinction because they have knowledge that some things are created and are therefore somehow different from other things which aren't. They are more complex, or have a certain symmetry to them not found in nature, or they are smoothed to an unnatural shine, etc. We're back to the criteria here. You have to have the criteria by which to judge - otherwise you simply can't say one way or the other without just guessing. And who are we to say we have the criteria available to us to make such judgments about the universe? That is exactly what you are saying you possess when using this analogy.
     
    #143 A Vestigial Mote, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
  4. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2018
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +60
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Disingenuous. I thought so. In fact perhaps pathetic is the right word?
    Read:

    https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/missing-matter-found-but-doesnt-dent-dark-matter-64a45b8e0b67

    the missing baryon problem might be solved by looking to the great cosmic web that gave rise to everything we see. But that remaining 27% of the Universe must still be out there, and we still don’t know what that is. We can see its effects, but no amount of missing normal matter is going to make a dent in the dark matter problem. We still need it, and no matter how much normal matter ...

    Ie: 50% of the 4% we already know about.

    ("Oh but where did I say I was referring to dark matter?" Wait for it, lol)
     
    #144 ERLOS, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    53,709
    Ratings:
    +12,684
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    From William Paley, who came up with the most common form of the watchmaker argument:

    "If I stumbled on a stone and asked how it came to be there, it would be difficult to show that the answer, it has lain there forever is absurd. Yet this is not true if the stone were to be a watch."
    https://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/paley.shtml

    So Paley really is saying that a stone (or a beach, in the OP's rephrasing) has no apparent design.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    12,397
    Ratings:
    +8,390
    Religion:
    None
    Funnily enough that is not an Einstein quote but a third psrty opinion. You will note that the following paragraph einstein wrote "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

    You seem to have a little paranoia there. Just consider how bored you would be if everyone agreed with you.
     
  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    12,397
    Ratings:
    +8,390
    Religion:
    None
    Did i say you mentioned dark matter? Or are you just trying to score self points. You gave figures, i provided a link that could dispute those figures and it seems to upset you.
     
  8. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2007
    Messages:
    4,505
    Ratings:
    +2,837
    It's kind of a silly attempt at an argument anyways. If I find a watch on a beach, I don't think to myself "Gosh, this object has such intricate parts that all work to a specified purpose....therefore it must be the result of intelligent design". Instead, I think "Hey, I found a watch! Cool!"

    Whether or not it was made by people doesn't really enter my thinking, and even if it did it would just be based on the fact that I've seen watches being manufactured and sold and I can go anytime I want and see watches being manufactured. That it has specific intricate parts doesn't enter into it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2018
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +60
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Told you so.

    I did mention dark matter. And dark energy. It was the whole point of the subject discussion. To which you responded by posting a link to a newspaper article which, on proper investigation, was actually talking about the discovery of the (possible) location in hot inter galactic filaments of the 50 to 90% of ordinary matter ( ie: of the lost part of the 4% of the universe we sre supposed to know about) which astronomers have to date been unable to locate.

    Disingenuous. Or lazy googling.

    Still, I wasn't aware that up 90% of even normal matter was hidden -- so at least I've learned something here, lol. Do you want me to thank you?
     
    #149 ERLOS, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    12,397
    Ratings:
    +8,390
    Religion:
    None
    So i didnt mention dark matter then. Thanks for clearing thst up

    Edit, its up to you, whether you thank me, i really done care
     
  11. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2018
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +60
    Religion:
    Catholic
    #151 ERLOS, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    53,709
    Ratings:
    +12,684
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    If you agree with “I don’t know,” then why would you lean towards something else (e.g. an intelligent first cause)?

    My issue isn’t with word choice. As a rule, teleological arguments, of which the watchmaker argument is just one, are irrational nonsense across the board.
     
  13. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2018
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +60
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Einstein did too. Max Planck. Many other illogical idiots.

    Some lean towards string theory.
    There are thousands of papers and propositions out there. All sorts of 'leanings'.

    In your opinion.

    I entered this discussion hoping for reasonable debate, not to be rudely abused by smarty know-it-alls.

    I repeat: if you aren't interested in 'faith' issues; why are you wasting so much of your life on an interfaith forum? It's really quite weird and illogical. So don't rudely accuse me of being illogical and ignorant.

    There's really no point me even saying it though. You're having too much fun?
    Cheers, mate.

    Go on, ban me. Run to teacher ...
     
    #153 ERLOS, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  14. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,069
    Ratings:
    +3,650
    Einstein was a deist who didn't believe in a personal God.

    And referring to people as "smarty know-it-alls" isn't rude or abusive?

    It's a religious debate forum.

    It's illogical and ignorant to use a religious debate forum to debate religion?
     
    #154 ImmortalFlame, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    7,755
    Ratings:
    +540
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    Not at all. The watch has Roman numerals and Arabic letters, showing design, and timekeeping features, showing purpose. Break the watch open and see complexity inside.

    The tree was a poor choice of analogy, since plants and animals are in a symbiotic circle of oxygen and carbon dioxide AND nutrition AND pollen transfer AND heat transfer AND water transfer AND AND AND AND AND AND . . .

    You are really missing the forest for the trees.
     
  16. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    5,754
    Ratings:
    +2,098
    Religion:
    Atheist
    You ignored my question. You tossed out Einstein’s name to support your claim of a god existing, and he believed in Spinoza’s god, so I asked if that was then the god you are proposing?

    I don’t understand the reference to markings on the watch, I have no idea what argument you are trying to make about that.
    You said the watch was unique because it was complex. What did you compare it to in order to decide it;s level of complexity?

    Are you saying in your analogy that anything that is complex has to have a designer more complex than the thing made?
     
  17. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2015
    Messages:
    5,754
    Ratings:
    +2,098
    Religion:
    Atheist
    From Wikipedia:
    [​IMG]
    Albert Einstein, 1921
    Albert Einstein's religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood.[1]Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza.[2] He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve.[3] He clarified however that, "I am not an atheist",[4]preferring to call himself an agnostic,[5] or a "religious nonbeliever."[3] Einstein also stated he did not believe in life after death, adding "one life is enough for me."[6] He was closely involved in his lifetime with several humanist groups.[7][8]
     
  18. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,001
    Ratings:
    +279
    Religion:
    i am not
    If different levels of energy are satisfactory to discern the presence energy without there being a lack of energy, then different levels of design are satisfactory to discern different levels of design without there being a lack of design. Again, let me state: the question of whether the beach is designed is irrelevant to the analogy. The design or lack of design of the beach is not being observed; it's purpose is to emphasize the apparent absence of watch-makers.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,001
    Ratings:
    +279
    Religion:
    i am not
    Indeed, Paley is saying the stone has no apparent design (as opposed to saying that the stone does not have design or designer). Are you disagreeing with Paley's suggestion (the one you just quoted above) that we may not easily conclude lack of design(er) from apparent lack of design?

    Also allow me to reiterate that the deserted beach in this thread's analogy emphasizes the apparent absence of watchmakers (aka designers). The apparent absence of watchmakers is not sufficient to conclude there are not (or were not) watchmakers.
     
  20. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    53,709
    Ratings:
    +12,684
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    I do disagree with it, actually. You can actually go into plenty of stores and buy fake rocks that have been designed. The really well-designed ones are indistinguishable at first glance from natural rocks.

    Inferring design - or lack of design - is a lot more difficult than Paley would have us believe.

    So God is absent... or at least apparently absent?
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...