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Featured The watchmaker

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Jul 9, 2018.

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  1. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it's an expansion of the analogy that points out the absurdity of it. The watchmaker argument is so fundamentally flawed, I don't even think it can be called an "argument". It's more like the watchmaker's fallacy.
     
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  2. godnotgod

    godnotgod Thou art That

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    OTOH, if it is all a Grand Illusion, as the Hindus tell us, 'cause' is not a factor, because there is nothing actually there. It's just a dream, and we need to awaken to see things as they actually are: Unconditioned, Uncaused, Unborn, Unchanging, and empty of self through and through.

    “We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.”
    Kalu Rinpoche
     
  3. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    Ok. But THIS universe came into being 13.7 billion years ago. All matter is composed of (as you say) patterns of energy and energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

    All the energy which now fills the perceivable universe (as matter, light and so on) as well as the other 96% of the (dark) energy and matter -- came into existence in less than a zillionth of a zillosecond from an infinitely small singularity that can't even be described as tiny.

    This happened out of nowhere, because there was no time or space preceding it. It went on to organise itself through a wonderful process of -- yes -- pure chance to become the universe we inhabit.

    No sarcasm intended. The Big Bang mechanism is universally accepted. The Standard Model WORKS and all credit to the brilliance of the many who have contributed.

    But whatever method scientists try to employ to 'define' the energy comprising the perceivable 4% of the universe as a mere mathematical detritus, let alone the remaining 96%, they havent really a clue about it.

    The latest scientific argument in support of all this is the theory of 'naturalness' which essentially says: Well, we don't know yet, but we will.

    Yet I'm to be regarded as stupid and ignorant for suggesting there may be a higher power at work somewhere out there?

    Otherwise we have to conclude that in the absence of discovering some clever aliens, that man is the highest intelligence in the universe?

    Then read back through some of the comments on this thread, lol ...
     
    #103 ERLOS, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    William Paley, not Albert Einstein:

    https://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/paley.shtml
     
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  5. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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  6. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    No offense, but you are absolutely wrong. It is true of everything so much that no scientist ever says x is random on a macro level, but rather, "we don't yet know the natural processes that designed X".

    It is also absolutely true that you would never see a wristwatch and assume it evolved. You simply extrapolate that organic life evolved because this fits your worldview.
     
  7. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    You shouldn’t be regarded as stupid and ignorant for suggesting there may be some form of higher power at work. The issues come up if you start treating it as anything more than a vague possibility of a generic concept before establishing a working hypothesis, let alone presenting any evidence.
     
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  8. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    How does that even remotely relate to the watchmaker fallacy?

    But the point is that the only reason we don't is because we already know and have directly observed watches being designed. If you suddenly encountered a watch-bearing tree, you would now know differently. The point is that the only thing that allows us to determine a watches origin is not its "complexity" or "design", but the fact that we observe watches being designed by humans and have no examples of nature producing them. To render the fallacy even more ridiculous, all you have to do is remember how much more complex a tree is than a watch, and you realize that the only reason the watch is used in the analogy in the first place isn't because of its complexity (because nature produces things far more complex), but because we already know it's designed, so it's a convenient go-to if you want to trick people into thinking design is an inherent facet of nature.

    No, it's because it fits the facts.
     
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  9. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    That Einstein quote you gave on the first page? It's pretty useless, IMO.

    "I see a clock?" Well, I don't. Where does that leave us?

    "...but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God[?]" - IOW, "the cause of this 'clock' is inconceivable to us, but I'll slap the label 'God' on it as if I know what it is."
     
  10. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    You don't see a universe? God is just a word. You can call it marmalade if you like. Makes no difference to the meaning?
     
  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    I don't see a clockwork universe.

    How about describing the cause of the universe with the more honest "I don't know?"
     
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  12. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    Well, we might meet somewhere around here. I do agree that the watch analogy as presented by Mr Palin is pretty dodgy and easy to destroy. Thanks for the information.

    I also agree completely with 'I don't know.' Although my opinion and reason obviously leans towards an intelligent first-cause, shall we say?

    Unfortunately there are fanaticists on both sides of the fence who make it difficult for ordinary reasonable people to be heard.

    That said, the watchmaker debate should be about the spirit of it and not nitpicking the words and terms in which it is presented? Imo.

    Regards
     
    #112 ERLOS, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Of course not. I give you an A++.
     
  14. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    You could've skinned the rabbit and cooked it for supper, with gravy and potatoes. What a waste ...
     
    #114 ERLOS, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Einstein on god

    "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this,”

    "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it"
     
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  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh man. Now you've gone and made me feel stupider.
    Are you getting a kick out of this.

    But wait...
    No. I might have killed the only ancestor to millions of life forms.
    Ah. Now I feel better.:relaxed:
     
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  17. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    'God doesn't play dice with thd universe.'
    He didn't say that?

    His 'clockmaker' quote is a fake?
     
  18. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Just one latest argument
    https://arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207

    Another latest argument, it seems cosmologists / astrophysicsts have located about 50% of the missing matter
    https://www.theguardian.com/science...nd-half-of-the-missing-matter-in-the-universe
     
  19. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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  20. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

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    The first is a paper submitted to Cornell University. No reviews. Doesn't mean a thing. All sorts of people post all sorts of papers. I can submit one. Doesn't mean anything at all.

    The second is still out there. Let's wait and see ...

    If they have, good, well done.
     
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