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Featured The watchmaker

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Desert Snake, Jul 9, 2018.

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  1. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    No, design in a process. There is no intrinsic quality of design that we can identify independently of the process. This is why you can't answer my challenge posed earlier without reference to other things you are already aware of the creation process of.

    How?

    The fact that everything we find in the fossil record fits perfectly with a nested hierarchy based on predictions drawn from evolutionary theory. If evolution and common ancestry were true, we would expect to find a diverse fossil record that homologizes as we go further into the past, with nested hierachies and physiological similarities shared the closer in geological region and strata we find the fossils in.

    That's exactly what we find. Not only that, evolutionary theory is now so reliable that we can literally predict in advance what kinds of fossils we will find in which geological strata.
     
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  2. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    I thought I just went through that. :shrug:
    Maybe go back and re-read through the thread yourself.
     
  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I am sorry, but you have just demonstrated that you have no clue as to what is and what is not evidence. I can help you on that. There is no scientific evidence for creationism at all.

    And a worthless definition, as you used for design, only leads to a worthless conclusion. But let's work on the concept of evidence first.
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Say again? I'm not following you.

    I see this as no different to what you said here:
    Merely assuming based on mens ideas.
    Note. A hypothesis starts with an idea. Where did you think it started with - a discovery?
    Assertions are made. Assumption follow. Inference is applied. That's the evidence of evolution.

    Scientists have no way of proving that their digging up fossils in geographic column, or similarities in "species" prove changes from one form of animal to the other.

    Yes, it is clearly observed - emphasis on clearly seen, that we adapt.

    If I took skeletal remains of one bird, and skeletal remains of another bird, of similar structure, and compared them, how have I proven that one evolved to the other? I've proven they are similar.

    A look at the fossil record show that all living things - from complex to more complex (there is no such thing as simple lifeforms) - appear suddenly and complete.

    They are no fossils support the view that one organism evolved to another, over millions of years, in fact period.
    They are no fossils of organisms in a partially evolved state, or a poorly evolved state which random mutations would certainly have produced.

    The founder of the theory of evolution said - in harmony with what we see today - (Origin of the Species):
    Page 23
    ... one form is ranked as a variety of another, not because the intermediate links have actually been found, but because analogy leads the observer to suppose either that they do now somewhere exist, or may formerly have existed; and here a wide door for the entry of doubt and conjecture is opened.

    Page 55
    ... during the process of modification, represented in the diagram, another of our principles, namely that of extinction, will have played an important part. As in each fully stocked country natural selection necessarily acts by the selected form having some advantage in the struggle for life over other forms, there will be a constant tendency in the improved descendants of any one species to supplant and exterminate in each stage of descent their predecessors and their original parent. For it should be remembered that the competition will generally be most severe between those forms which are most nearly related to each other in habits, constitution, and structure. Hence all the intermediate forms between the earlier and later states, that is between the less and more improved state of a species, as well as the original parent-species itself, will generally tend to become extinct.

    Page 58
    Natural selection, as has just been remarked, leads to divergence of character and to much extinction of the less improved and intermediate forms of life.

    Page 80
    ... must assuredly have existed; but the very process of natural selection constantly tends, as has been so often remarked, to exterminate the parent forms and the intermediate links. Consequently evidence of their former existence could be found only amongst fossil remains, which are preserved...

    Page 125
    By the theory of natural selection all living species have been connected with the parent-species of each genus, by differences not greater than we see between the varieties of the same species at the present day; and these parent-species, now generally extinct, have in their turn been similarly connected with more ancient species; and so on backwards, always converging to the common ancestor of each great class. So that the number of intermediate and transitional links, between all living and extinct species, must have been inconceivably great. But assuredly, if this theory be true, such have lived upon this earth.
    -----------------


    For over a century, none of these so-called intermediates have been found.
    If the theory were true, this would be the proof required. Hence, the fossil record alone long falsified the evolution theory.

    Living fossils testify to this fact, and do not at all support the theory of evolution.

    Evidence that the process is not ongoing also disproves it.

    I know they don't accept this, and they continue to promote their ideas, despite, but there is a reason why that happens.

    That's just the fossil record - the evidence that would have been strongest - if it existed.
    All the other evidence is also asserted.



    I'm aware of what I wrote Skeptic. I understand what i wrote too. I think what may be happening is that you may be trying to make a connection to where it's not connected.
     
  5. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Well-Known Member

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    I really don't know how more clearly I can state it. Design isn't an inherent facet of an object, it is a process that produces an object - therefore you cannot use the object itself as evidence of design without prior knowledge of the design process.

    But it isn't. It's based on what the evidence indicates. It's a conclusion DRAWN FROM the evidence.

    A hypothesis is TESTED by continual refinement and discovery. Where did you think the original hypothesis came from? It came directly from observation of nature.


    Because "proof" is a meaningless term in science. Nothing is "proven", just "evidenced".

    The fact that you think that this is remotely comparable to the actual examination used by geologists and biologists is hilarious to me. Do you honestly believe that scientists just looked at the remains of two similar birds and said "Yep, they look similar, that proves they're related!"?


    Utterly false and equally meaningless.


    Now you're just outright lying. Every fossil we have ever found fits transitional patterns perfectly.

    That's not how evolution works. Nor organisms are ever "half-evolved". That's like saying that because your parents produced you and your grand parents produced your parents, your parents were a "half evolved state" between you and your grand parents.

    If you knew how evolution worked, you would already know this.


    Yet another lie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils


    All this sentence proves is that your ignorant of science, which doesn't use "proof", and the fossil record, which contains thousands of fossils.

    You should elaborate on this. Evolutionary processes are still observed directly today.

    Evidence that you clearly haven't even looked for.
     
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  6. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    Or you're just trying to avoid it. Whatever.
     
  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I went through this already, and I will not continue to go in circles.
    Design
    noun
    1. 1.
      a plan or drawing produced to show the look and function or workings of a building, garment, or other object before it is built or made.
    2. 2.
      purpose, planning, or intention that exists or is thought to exist behind an action, fact, or material object.
    So, you never saw a painting in your life... period.
    You know about crayons. Can you come to a conclusion, assumption, whatever, that the painting was designed by someone?
    I'm done with that. EOL.

    What evidence?


    You have shown nothing here. It's not relevant to what I am saying.
    What are you trying to say, that scientists don't assert anything?

    What does this prove?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Me? :)
     
  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    How by your definition is life "designed"? If you want to use #2 the burden of proof is upon you to show the intention. You can't merely claim design without evidence.

    So you are totally ignorant in regards to biology. Odds are that we would need to start at the basics. Are you willing to learn?

    Actually he probably has. When scientists make an assertion they support it with evidence. That is if they want anyone to take them seriously.

    That list? For one thing it proves that creationists are either incredibly ignorant or lying when they claim that there are no transitional forms.
     
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  10. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    I second that.

    @nPeace you've claimed that you can "easily" disprove evolutionary theory. That's quite the bold assertion and one I would think you wouldn't make if it weren't true. So by all means, back up your assertion.
     
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  11. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    I'll call the Nobel Committee.
     
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  12. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    I wouldn't dial just yet.......:D
     
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  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I'm like you guys here. You claim that you - not you Fly, but some of you - can prove there is no God.
    You apparently prove it by your reasoning, and evidence, and I do the same. It doesn't mean we have proved it to the world.

    However, evolution is not based on solid evidence. It is based on evidence that is gathered in support of it. Evidence that has not, and cannot be verified... and please, I am not referring to adaptation, which does not refute creation evidence.

    Are you denying that the evidence is asserted? Then please provide me with one piece of unassuming evidence, and please, do not post a link to a whole page, as was done above. pull out one piece of evidence that I can focus on.

    Thank you.
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    What? ...and get me locked up? :)
     
  15. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    Irrelevant to your claim that you can "easily" disprove evolutionary theory.

    You're deflecting. You claimed that you can "easily" disprove evolutionary theory. Let's see you do it.
     
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  16. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Ha Ha. No I am not.
    You all - every last one of you know that what i say is true, so you can't show anything. Hint Hint.
     
  17. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    You're still dodging. Again, you claimed that you can "easily" disprove evolutionary theory. Let's see you do it.
     
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  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I already did.
     
  19. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    Where?
     
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    What? You missed it?
    Sorry Fly. One sided badgering is not good. :neutral:
     
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