1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The watchmaker

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Jul 9, 2018.

Tags:
  1. ERLOS

    ERLOS God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2018
    Messages:
    279
    Ratings:
    +60
    Religion:
    Catholic
    NOW it's getting interesting, lol.

    Do we start with the second anthropic principle, or do we assume that in this, the only universe there is, that the age of the earth is sufficient for life to have evolved in steps via activity in primeval oceans?

    Or perhaps it was seeded from elsewhere?

    We may start by assuming everyone understands the fine tunings and the multiple universes ideas?
     
  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    22,463
    Ratings:
    +12,334
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Sorry, no derails.
     
  3. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    3,538
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    ?
    But that's part of the problem... "different levels of design?" It is all, supposedly designed, right? What about the apparent absence of tree makers? What about the apparent absence of stone makers? What about the apparent absence of air makers? Why is the watch the object chosen? This fact says volumes about the honesty of the analogy itself.

    Besides this, the entire analogy is a strawman argument. You put up the strawman of the "uncreated watch" - and then easily disprove that because humans having experience with watches understand that you can't have a watch form without a creator. Then you posit "the universe" as even more complex than a watch and therefore conclude that you have also disproved the "uncreated universe" - but you haven't. All you did was put up a strawman and knock it down, hailing yourself as the victor. It is failure at its finest.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    3,538
    Ratings:
    +2,213
    Religion:
    ?
    Nope, my reasoning is yet more made intact, because I have been making the EXACT point you just made all along... much to the chagrin of others who are trying to support the analogy... so I thank you.

    One of my points has been that we only understand the created aspect of the watch because we have experience with objects that occur naturally, and those that do not. And, to your mind, what are we comparing the watch to in order to come to the conclusion that it is created? Why... nothing short of EVERYTHING ELSE that God also supposedly created that occurs without HUMAN hands needed to form them. Why is this significant, you ask? Because it shows why the watch was chosen for the analogy, and not the sand on the beach. Specifically because we ONLY have experience with created watches. But... do we ONLY have experience with created universes? Do you see the problem there? We have experience with precisely one universe... and it is impossible to conclude with 100% certainty that it was created. Hence the reason we are having this discussion at all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    You have lost me. What are you talking about? I thought we were on evidence for God.
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    What? You have no evidence? Thanks. I already knew.
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    22,463
    Ratings:
    +12,334
    Religion:
    Atheist
    No, we were discussing evolution. Whether evolution is how life developed or not does not prove or disprove God.

    Or to restate it the fact that the Adam and Eve story is a myth does not refute God.
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    22,463
    Ratings:
    +12,334
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I did not say that or even imply that. This was not an honest comment and appears to be a lie.
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Explain how we have evidence of objects that occur naturally

    Okay. I follow.
    So no one knows with 100% certainty.
    Now say someone is questioning what is responsible for what you call natural.
    In order to do so, they use their senses, since no one knows for sure.
    They come to the conclusion, by using experience, and logic, that what they see around them is a grander picture of what they know and observe.

    For example, when they see a beautiful painting, they know that someone was responsible for using skill to produce the masterpiece, and the painting may even tell them something about the artist.
    When the see a piece of machinery - like say, a watch - they know that the working parts were purposely designed with particular functions in mind. Each intricate part has a useful purpose, and all the parts work together in achieving results - a properly working time piece.

    They conclude that someone was responsible for the beauty, the order, the purpose, etc, since they know from experience than it requires intelligence for particular things.

    Furthermore, they reason that no one has been able to show how things came into existence, who or what created the universe, but they found the answer in ancient scripture, for which they have evidence it tells the truth.
    They find the scriptures seem to give answers to these questions.
    Romans 1:19, 20
    19 because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.

    ...and they make sense. The scriptures are in agreement with their true experience, and observation.
    Hebrews 3:4
    Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.

    They reason that it is observed that things don't come from nothing - they come from something.
    They conclude that it makes more sense to believe that an intelligence created all these things.

    Are you arguing that this person has no evidence?[/QUOTE]
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    At what point were we discussing evolution? Have you decided to derail the OP? Count me out. I would consider that selfish.
    You had your chance with the thread you created.

    Why are you refusing to continue with @ERLOS here.
    I found that was outright rude.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    I'm sorry, did you give me evidence? Where?
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    22,463
    Ratings:
    +12,334
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Really? You do not understand that the flawed Watchmaker argument is an attack on the theory of evolution?
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    22,463
    Ratings:
    +12,334
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Are you just trolling now? That is a violation of the rules here. I already explained to you that by moving the goal posts you admitted that you were wrong about evolution. If you admit your error I will gladly discuss abiogenesis with you. Until then there is no point.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    No. I know it was an argument for creation. It was even mentioned here.
    ... and look who posted it @ERLOS
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Fine by me.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    22,463
    Ratings:
    +12,334
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Wrong again. It was an ignorant and failed argument against evolution
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    22,463
    Ratings:
    +12,334
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I do not understand. Are you refusing to be honest about your error in attempting to move the goalposts?
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Obviously our opinions differ.
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,674
    Ratings:
    +1,008
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    What don't you understand? That you are refusing to discuss the evidence that life creates itself? Why don't you understand that?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    22,463
    Ratings:
    +12,334
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Please, once again you are not being honest. Your error was explained to you. You would not take the honorable way out. Until you do there is no point in trying to help you.
     
Loading...