The wall costs the government $10 more than a large pizza.

[SkepticThinker]

You believe him?
It's possible that he was honest about that intention.
It's also possible that it was bargaining bluster.
And not, it's also possibly emotional investment in a stand taken.
This win-at-all-costs mentality could be afflicting both sides.

He said it out loud and on camera, so ...

For somebody who sort of co-authored "The Art of the Deal," you'd think he'd be better at making deals without making a"bargaining bluster." Perhaps that explains all his bankruptcies.

I don't doubt Democrats having offered a compromise.
And it's certainly possible that Trump refuses to compromise.
But let's consider a scenario wherein 3 months down the road
government is still in shutdown mode. Costs will be in the
$15 billion range. About $10 billion would have been lost.
Each party which refuses to give in owns that loss.
One side having right on their side doesn't change this.

The best approach is to play it as a board game, rather
than right vs wrong. Minimize the loss.

Trying to negotiate with a narcissistic child who will just take his ball and go home is very difficult.

 

[Revoltingest]

Trying to negotiate with a narcissistic child who will just take his ball and go home is very difficult.

I never said it would be easy.
But there are times where winning the war means losing a battle.
Enemies can be like that.

 

[youknowme]

That is fine, if what is brushed aside is in fact an insult.

The thing about "republicans" being "scared" and wanting to
"box" themselves in certainly is ill informed and insulting.

I have read some of the things you have posted about the "other" side . . so just get over it and move on.

 

[fantome profane]

The best approach is to play it as a board game, rather
than right vs wrong. Minimize the loss.

I do not necessarily disagree.

But if Trump learns from this experience that this is a winning strategy he will use it again.... and again, and again. And that has got to be considered when you try to figure out how to minimize the loss.

A few months from now Trump will want another 5 billion for his wall. And if it worked this time he will shut down the government again.

 

[Audie]

I have read some of the things you have posted about the "other" side . . so just get over it and move on.

For the butt-ins, advice better taken than given.

 

[viole]

"President Trump is asking for $5.7 Billion, out of an annual budget of $4.407 Trillion.

In other words, Trump wants 57 bucks, out of an annual budget of $44,070.

Think about that. Imagine your spouse saying, "We're not going back to work, the kids aren't getting their allowances, and no bills are getting paid until you give up the idea of spending 57 bucks to fence in our yard."

This is what Pelosi and Schumer have halted our government for."

source: Red White Blue News


Essentially, this is the level of absurdity to the Democrat position. They're literally arguing over one large pizza or so... (For us normal folks...) So, everyone has to suffer for that. Does that seem justified?

Anyway, I think such comparisons are important to understand what a pittance the total amount is. How does this make you feel about the positions various politicians are taking on this matter?

I don't particularly find that Democrat voters themselves are largely against border security or reasonably priced wall. (It seems price is the largest concern for Dems... Not whether we need to have one, or the people to keep it running.)

P.S. Also, what happened to the Secure Fence Act 50 billion? H.R.6061 - 109th Congress (2005-2006): Secure Fence Act of 2006 Does anyone know? That's a helluva lot of fence.

How many poor people can you feed or cure with 57 bucks?
How many with > 5 billions?

That alone should make it clear that comparisons can take you only so far.

Ciao

- viole

 

[youknowme]

For the butt-ins, advice better taken than given.

I am sorry but did you forget you were posting on a public forum, in an open debate?

 

[atanu]

Anyway, this is mostly a show that's going to backfire on them. They're going to lose if this goes past 30 days and SNAP and other welfare funding runs out -- which it will, soon. Sure, you might hate the wall, but do you hate it enough to make a large percentage of your voter base face hardship over the point? He's not giving up because, quite simply, he doesn't have to. If he even offers a concession to them it's going to be his own generosity at play. ...

Gosh ... such a mean strategy.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Are some republican people so scared of foreign people that they must box them self in with a wall to "protect them self" ? How about trying to help those who are in need instead of only looking at one self?

Think how much 5,7 billion could do for the poor in America, or reduce the drug cartels inside of the border, Those who actually order the mexican drugs that do come over the border. Or get a propper health care system that does not only benefit the rich.
So much could be done without building a wall.

If it was that amicable I don't think anybody would be having these conversations and debates.

Illegal immigration is hideously damaging not only to the economy, but to people's literal health because there is no screening of disease and other health concerns with illegals.

It's why the laws were set up in the first place. They aren't there to discourage people but to encourage going through the proper channels but as you can clearly see that's being abused such as the practice of overstaying visas.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not necessarily disagree.

But if Trump learns from this experience that this is a winning strategy he will use it again.... and again, and again. And that has got to be considered when you try to figure out how to minimize the loss.

A few months from now Trump will want another 5 billion for his wall. And if it worked this time he will shut down the government again.

With only 2 years left in office, that particular long game looks
unproductive....unless you think he'll win in 2020, eh.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

President Trump is asking for $5.7 Billion

The answer was "No"

This is what Pelosi and Schumer have halted our government for.

Trump halted the government. He said he would and he did.

Essentially, this is the level of absurdity to the Democrat position. They're literally arguing over one large pizza or so

No, they're literally arguing over whether border security should be wed to reopening the government. Pizza was never mentioned literally or figuratively.

Trump hasn't halted the government, as much as they've refused to negotiate on the wall, so he refused to sign any funding bill.

The Democrats have no duty to obey commands from Trump. The Democrats have said what they are willing to do. The ball is in Trump's court.

He's already promised to do what they want if they'll keep their word to help him.

Trump's promises are worthless. Didn't he promise to have Mexico pay for the wall?

I don't think he needs to cave, and they eventually will have to

You've got it backwards. The Democrats only need to hold resolutely to their position that they will not discuss anything with Trump until he reopens government. The longer this goes on, the more damage to Trump and the Republican brand. The Democrats only need sit back and watch the right self-destruct.

He can wait them out

At an incalculable cost to him and his party. Wait until the federal government workers start going postal at their former places of employment.

If we built the wall and rectified visa overstays, we'd save at least 150 billion each year after the initial outlay.

Perhaps Trump should take that to a bank and try to get a personal loan based on those revenues. The American people don't want to pay, and were promised that they wouldn't be asked to do so.

As is his right to do so, he has a right to reject any deal that doesn't meet his requirements.

And the Democrats have claimed that right for themselves. They reject Trump's demands.

They know what his requirements are, so they can either deal with that or not.

I don't think that the Democrats care what Trump's requirements are. They care about their requirements.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If we built the wall and rectified visa overstays, we'd save at least 150 billion each year after the initial outlay. So, how many poor people can you help with that?

It's a shame because people opposing the wall don't want to listen to that kind of reasoning.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If it was that amicable I don't think anybody would be having these conversations and debates.

Illegal immigration is hideously damaging not only to the economy, but to people's literal health because there is no screening of disease and other health concerns with illegals.

It's why the laws were set up in the first place. They aren't there to discourage people but to encourage going through the proper channels but as you can clearly see that's being abused such as the practice of overstaying visas.

Such as? Do they have brand new diseases nobody has ever heard of?

 

[fantome profane]

With only 2 years left in office, that particular long game looks
unproductive....unless you think he'll win in 2020, eh.

How many more times do you think he could shut down the government in that time? Three more times? Four? More?

I am only saying this is something to consider. Not that it is the only thing to consider.

 

[BSM1]

Are some republican people so scared of foreign people that they must box them self in with a wall to "protect them self" ? How about trying to help those who are in need instead of only looking at one self?

Think how much 5,7 billion could do for the poor in America, or reduce the drug cartels inside of the border, Those who actually order the mexican drugs that do come over the border. Or get a propper health care system that does not only benefit the rich.
So much could be done without building a wall.

You are obviously waay out of touch to those that support protecting our borders, but to play Devils Advocate, why not eliminate all the foreign aid pouring out of the US to very ungrateful countries and apply those funds to helping "the poor" in America?

 

[Mindmaster]

It's a shame because people opposing the wall don't want to listen to that kind of reasoning.

Yeah, it's not the first time I've made that point. I don't hate illegal aliens as people, but they do spend up the resources on the need to chasing them down. Mathematically, they're thieves stealing from our own poor, so I'm not too happy about how our government handles the situation. Our poorer citizens are basically the only place that money can come from, since things like defense require X to do the job, social security needs a certain amount of funding or it implodes, education and whatnot also need minimums or things go boom. Don't pay for something for the poor? No one really notices... The truth of this is very hard to digest, but it's generally the thing I remain the most irritated about in the situation.

 

[Nakosis]

"President Trump is asking for $5.7 Billion, out of an annual budget of $4.407 Trillion.

In other words, Trump wants 57 bucks, out of an annual budget of $44,070.

Think about that. Imagine your spouse saying, "We're not going back to work, the kids aren't getting their allowances, and no bills are getting paid until you give up the idea of spending 57 bucks to fence in our yard."

This is what Pelosi and Schumer have halted our government for."

source: Red White Blue News


Essentially, this is the level of absurdity to the Democrat position. They're literally arguing over one large pizza or so... (For us normal folks...) So, everyone has to suffer for that. Does that seem justified?

Anyway, I think such comparisons are important to understand what a pittance the total amount is. How does this make you feel about the positions various politicians are taking on this matter?

I don't particularly find that Democrat voters themselves are largely against border security or reasonably priced wall. (It seems price is the largest concern for Dems... Not whether we need to have one, or the people to keep it running.)

P.S. Also, what happened to the Secure Fence Act 50 billion? H.R.6061 - 109th Congress (2005-2006): Secure Fence Act of 2006 Does anyone know? That's a helluva lot of fence.

The wall realistically is only important if you want to see Trump re-elected. that's why he wants it built and the Democrats don't.

Cost and effectiveness are not the real issue. They are just talking points for the public's consumption. While you are right, it's a trivial cost. The folks on the left are also right in that there and much more effective ways of dealing with illegal immigration.

IMO, using talking points you just end up talking past each other.

I assume you'd like to see Trump reelected, right? Well you need a wall built for that.

Otherwise, how does illegal immigration affect you personally?

 

[Revoltingest]

How many more times do you think he could shut down the government in that time? Three more times? Four? More?

His current rate is once every other year.

 

[Mindmaster]

IMO, using talking points you just end up talking past each other.

I assume you'd like to see Trump reelected, right? Well you need a wall built for that.

Otherwise, how does illegal immigration affect you personally?

People often think they're not affected by illegal immigration, but unless you're truly a member of the elite class of people who needs no resource directly from the government it generally has an influence on everyone.

You pay more taxes toward law enforcement, welfare, education, welfare, and infrastructure. It's not like there is some vacuum where every single dollar wasted on a non-citizen doesn't have a direct influence on your quality of life. It does, even if you don't know what you're missing. When things go bad for a citizen they're competing for the same resources that the illegals are using as subsistence money. That's the problem, it's literally thieving cash from our poorer citizens -- we don't need to be geniuses to figure out that the poor are really the only people you can take this money from. So, I guess, in a nutshell, that is what bothers me. It's not the silly drug wars, the anecdotal violent crime, or whatever. It's a real on-going problem, and the people that are really paying for the mistake of not securing the border are the ones least able to handle the loss. (Largely, because they're the only ones the politicians can shaft, since they also conversely donate the least money to campaigns and so on.)

There is a lot of opportunity cost -- young people aren't able to compete for starting jobs due to near-slave labor being available either. So, not only are the poor being stolen from, but their chance to not be poor at all is greatly diminished. It's impossible to "hold wages up" and import more people, basic economics and supply and demand apply to the working population as well. If there is a great influx of foreign workers (legal or not) there is a tendency for wages to fall sharply. Thus, the standard of living, in general degrades with it.

 

[Milton Platt]

"President Trump is asking for $5.7 Billion, out of an annual budget of $4.407 Trillion.

In other words, Trump wants 57 bucks, out of an annual budget of $44,070.

Think about that. Imagine your spouse saying, "We're not going back to work, the kids aren't getting their allowances, and no bills are getting paid until you give up the idea of spending 57 bucks to fence in our yard."

This is what Pelosi and Schumer have halted our government for."

source: Red White Blue News


Essentially, this is the level of absurdity to the Democrat position. They're literally arguing over one large pizza or so... (For us normal folks...) So, everyone has to suffer for that. Does that seem justified?

Anyway, I think such comparisons are important to understand what a pittance the total amount is. How does this make you feel about the positions various politicians are taking on this matter?

I don't particularly find that Democrat voters themselves are largely against border security or reasonably priced wall. (It seems price is the largest concern for Dems... Not whether we need to have one, or the people to keep it running.)

P.S. Also, what happened to the Secure Fence Act 50 billion? H.R.6061 - 109th Congress (2005-2006): Secure Fence Act of 2006 Does anyone know? That's a helluva lot of fence.

There is a vast difference between 57 bucks and 5.7 billion bucks. Send me 5.7 billion bucks and I will,send you 57 bucks and you will understand.

what happened to “Mexico will pay for the wall”?