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The Virgin Birth of Science.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Well, maybe we don’t agree like I previously thought. You differentiated the ritual from what you called “actual circumcision”, but you see the ritual as what the covenant is based on?

I don’t want this to seem like I am trying to corner you, so I will explain my view. The human mind is considered male and the flesh is female. I believe you know this. The mind and flesh are initially one (think of a baby). To become male is to identify with the mind and alienate yourself from the flesh. Before actual circumcision can happen, we are to become male in this way.

When we become male, after the mind is alienated from the flesh, we are to seek actual circumcision and a new covenant with God. Before a new covenant can be established, the old covenant with the “Be fruitful and multiply” version of God must be broken. Sacrifices will have to be made in order to complete this process.

Once the old covenant is broken and we are free agents, only then can actual circumcision begin. Circumcision is to take place in the Spirit, meaning the Holy Spirit, and in the flesh. In other words, the alienated, male mind has to follow the Holy Spirit back into the feminine flesh where crucifixion, nakedness, and death awaits.

The new covenant is only for the people who make these moves. Abraham was the first to make these moves. His version of God is not the same version of God that Adam obeyed. His version of God is not the same version of God that any static, religious group (which is all groups) is in covenant with. If we don’t know Abraham’s version of God, then we can’t know Jesus, the Son of Man, or the Father.

Oh, in my opinion. I’m supposed to say that more on this forum according to the Moderators.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I think it's correct in the metaphorical sense you're laying it out. So much depends on the theological context we're using. And so much depends on how we're using words, like, for instance "male" (as mind). Or "spirit." What does "spirit" mean in context with male and female? Is the spirit male, female, both, or neither?



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
sooooooo.....odd

wasn't Dawkins a nonbeliever?

and even as he looks to the formation of Man
he fails to see that Man was formed to create....unique spirit

I've been criticized for using the word "tautology" so often in this and recent threads. But what Dawkins is doing reflects a mind that can't distinguish a tautological truth from an objective, or scientific truth. Which is to say that he's so sure that there's no Creator or God, that it doesn't bother him to imply that the world looks exactly like there's a Creator God, except for the fact that there isn't. The "isn't" isn't observable in the world, since, by Dawkins own reasoning the world looks exactly like there is a Creator God or divine designer. So the fact that there isn't is as unprovable as the fact that there is.

Dawkins is a brilliant writer and thinker. I love his thought and his writing. But it's simply a fact that his mind is circumscribed within a tautological straight-jacket, and chained up like a mad-dog so it doesn't hurt anyone. His writing is just for fun. Like Dr. Seuss for science-minded readers; entertaining as hell, but silly as a cat in a hat.

He actually, beyond belief, coined the word "designoid." What, you ask, is a "designoid"? By Dawkins own reasoning it's something that looks exactly like its designed even though it isn't. And since it looks exactly like it's designed, how do we know it isn't? Because if it was, it would require a designer, and there is no designer. How do we know there is no designer when to all appearances there is? Because if there is a designer, we're on the wrong side of reality, and we're the smart, good, people, you know; so that can't be the case.

The man arguing that there's no soul, or transcendent mind, just natural laws and physical functions, claimed, in a statement that should have caused censors to remove his scientific badge, that "we" alone in the universe have the power to rebel against our creators, the genes, and the memes (thoughts) that "we" are forced to live inside. We're created by genes, and conditioned to think according to thought-genes, i.,e "memes." And yet "we," humans, according to this atheist, can rebel against our creators, our genes, and our thoughts, proving that we're free from genetic compliance, and memetic compliance. And how did we arrive at this freedom from genetic contingency and obedience to thought? Naturally that kind of Freedom Evolves. Naturally. Daniel Dennett says so.



John
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I've been criticized for using the word "tautology" so often in this and recent threads. But what Dawkins is doing reflects a mind that can't distinguish a tautological truth from an objective, or scientific truth. Which is to say that he's so sure that there's no Creator or God, that it doesn't bother him to imply that the world looks exactly like there's a Creator God, except for the fact that there isn't. The "isn't" isn't observable in the world, since, by Dawkins own reasoning the world looks exactly like there is a Creator God or divine designer. So the fact that there isn't is as unprovable as the fact that there is.

Dawkins is a brilliant writer and thinker. I love his thought and his writing. But it's simply a fact that his mind is circumscribed within a tautological straight-jacket, and chained up like a mad-dog so it doesn't hurt anyone. His writing is just for fun. Like Dr. Seuss for science-minded readers; entertaining as hell but silly as a cat in a hat.

He actually, beyond belief, coined the word "designoid." What, you ask, is a "designoid"? By Dawkins own reasoning it's something that looks exactly like its designed even though it isn't. And since it looks exactly like it's designed, how do we know it isn't? Because if it was, it would require a designer, and there is no designer. How do we know there is no designer when to all appearances there is? Because if there is a designer, we're on the wrong side of reality, and we're the smart, good, people, you know; so that can't be the case.



John
I think I get the double talk.....

but we know the Artist.....by the creation
do we not?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
“His disciples said, "When will you appear to us, and when will we see you?"

Jesus said, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you take your clothes and put them under your feet like little children and trample them, then [you] will see the son of the living one and you will not be afraid."

-Gospel of Thomas #37

But why, if Abraham undoes the epispasmic surgery that transformed Adam into a min (a Jew who looks like a Gentile), do we come to find that after Abraham's circumcision, the tallit still covers up what we should suspect is the most glorious uncovering the world has ever known, i.e., the naked revelation of the nature of the original Jewish body? -----Adam was naked Jewish flesh prior to his epispasmic-surgery (and wasn’t ashamed of it). After the surgery he was a Jewish heretic who looked like a Gentile. So God covers up the shameful flesh that mixed Jew and genital, Jew and Gentile. -----But then Abraham ritually removes the flesh Adam mixed with Jewish flesh such that we should expect Abraham to be the first human since Adam who could strut around naked as a jaybird without being ashamed: the first actual Jew since Adam?

Jewish Clothing, the Naked Truth.​



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I think I get the double talk.....

but we know the Artist.....by the creation
do we not?

Right. As Berkeley implied, people like Dawkins are blinded by the light. God's existence is soooooo obvious, that they can't see it even though it's right in front of them. Dawkins says as much: It looks exactly like God designed it; but that's just because it's a designoid; a "designoid" being something indistinguishable from something God designed unless you have a tinfoil cap and x-ray glasses to see through to the invisible truth.



John
 
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Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
But why, if Abraham undoes the epispasmic surgery that transformed Adam into a min (a Jew who looks like a Gentile), do we come to find that after Abraham's circumcision, the tallit still covers up what we should suspect is the most glorious uncovering the world has ever known, i.e., the naked revelation of the nature of the original Jewish body? -----Adam was naked Jewish flesh prior to his epispasmic-surgery (and wasn’t ashamed of it). After the surgery he was a Jewish heretic who looked like a Gentile. So God covers up the shameful flesh that mixed Jew and genital, Jew and Gentile. -----But then Abraham ritually removes the flesh Adam mixed with Jewish flesh such that we should expect Abraham to be the first human since Adam who could strut around naked as a jaybird without being ashamed: the first actual Jew since Adam?

Jewish Clothing, the Naked Truth.​



John

After looking up “epispasmic”, I think I am tracking. Here is the issue: naked Adam and circumcised Abraham are not identical. The clothing that covered Adam, and that covers us all in the womb, has the effect of making our mind/brain/consciousness more complex. The clothing is part of the evolutionary process. Naked Adam was not human like us. Does that make sense?

Further, Abraham was not fully circumcised, with regards to actual circumcision. Jesus is the only one so far who has been fully circumcised. Complete circumcision = the Resurrection. In my view.
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
-Why were the names of Abram and Sarai changed during this conversation with God?
God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

When we make the moves previously mentioned to become male and are prepared for circumcision to begin, then we are in transformation. Hence, Abram becomes Abraham.

When we become male, then we begin to become aware of and desire the female, or the Bride to our Bridegroom. The Bride becomes an ideal and projection onto every human female especially our romantic partner(s). This is why when Abraham becomes male, Sarai changes in his mind, becoming Sarah.

The Bride is the princess trapped in the lair of the dragon that the hero must save. She is the one who first ate the forbidden fruit and emanated the male. The Bride is the eventual mother of the Son of Man. From my perspective.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
According to the view of science which I am trying to defend here, this is due to the fact that scientists have dared (since Thales, Democritus, Plato's Timaeus, and Aristarchus) to create myths, or conjectures, or theories, which are in striking contrast to everyday world of common [sensory or auditory] experience, yet able to explain some aspects of this world of common experience. Galileo pays homage to Aristarchus and Copernicus precisely because they dared to go beyond this known world of our senses . . ..

Sir Karl Popper, Conjectures and Refutations, p. 102.​

Although Popper is always clear that science doesn't derive from natural observations or inductive logic so empowered, in the past he distinguish between the myth-makers, the religious high priests, versus the scientist. As was shown in the Popper threads, Popper claims that the scientist is different from the myth-maker or religious priest or prophet, in that whereas the former devises critical argumentation to test the mytho-theological tenet, the myth-maker merely accepts the tenet on faith, or religious dogmatism.

And yet in the statement above, Popper doesn't seem to want to distinguish between the myth-maker, Plato, and his myth, Timaeus, versus the scientist who would create experiments to test the myth-maker's dogmatic statements?

Popper unifies the myth-maker and the scientist in the statement (above) because he realizes that if the scientist never creates science by means of his natural observations (Popper says as much) then the scientist would have to have some other organ, or organon, of perception, able to see deeper into reality than what can be perceived by the eye or the ear. Popper realizes that if the eye and the ear, bodily means of perception, aren't the source of modern scientific insight (and he's clear they're not) then the scientist must have a non-empirical avenue to "see" reality in a clearer way than the way he sees it through his eyes and hears it through his ears.

Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord.

Ezekiel 13:2.

And he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears.

Isaiah 11:3

Do ya kinda see where this is going? What's the word of the Lord the true scientist must receive if he's not to be deceived by his lying eyes and ears? What's the means of arriving at viable theories of the true nature of the world if the eyes and ears, derived through evolution, don't cut the mustard? And more importantly, what does it mean that the human mind has an invisible organ, or organon, through which reality can be perceived since neither Darwinism, nor evolution, deal with invisible organs able to perceive reality:

It is quite hard to realize that every soul possesses an organ better worth saving than a thousand eyes, because it is our only means of seeing the truth.

Plato, Republic.

The advance of science is not due to the fact that more and more perceptual experiences accumulate in the course of time. Nor is it due to the fact that we are making ever better use of our senses. Out of uninterpreted sense-experiences science cannot be distilled, no matter how industriously we gather and sort them. Bold ideas, unjustified anticipations, and speculative thought, are our only means for interpreting nature: our only organon, our only instrument, for grasping her.

Sir Karl Popper, The Logic of Scientific Discovery, p. 280.​

Even in this last statement Popper makes a gaff unfitting of his brilliance when he says "Out of uninterpreted sense-experiences science cannot be distilled, no matter how industriously we gather and sort them." The statement seems to imply that "interpreting" sense-experiences is the fix to "uninterpreted sense experiences". And yet Popper is clear that no sense experience is the source of scientific thought, "Bold ideas, unjustified anticipations, and speculative thought, are our only means for interpreting nature: our only organon, our only instrument, for grasping her."

Where do the bold ideas come from? Popper is clear: myth and religion. His disjointed statement above is a way of not facing what we can see clear as day: that Popper has no means for explaining how religious thought, mythological reasoning, or faith, arrives at peculiarly valuable scientific speculation. And it ain't lucky guesses, or purely speculative thought, since there must be something to speculate about, and Popper is clear that empirical observation isn't the source of the speculation. So what is?



John
I would disagree entirely with whatever Popper is saying about science here. Science is Entirely about systematic empirical observations and experimentation of natural phenomena and creating mathematical or logical theories based on the patterns that these observational or experimental data throw up. That is it.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
After looking up “epispasmic”, I think I am tracking. Here is the issue: naked Adam and circumcised Abraham are not identical. The clothing that covered Adam, and that covers us all in the womb, has the effect of making our mind/brain/consciousness more complex. The clothing is part of the evolutionary process. Naked Adam was not human like us. Does that make sense?

Further, Abraham was not fully circumcised, with regards to actual circumcision. Jesus is the only one so far who has been fully circumcised. Complete circumcision = the Resurrection. In my view.

I don't have a problem with any of that.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I would disagree entirely with whatever Popper is saying about science here. Science is Entirely about systematic empirical observations and experimentation of natural phenomena and creating mathematical or logical theories based on the patterns that these observational or experimental data throw up. That is it.

I'm ok with you having your own definition and or understanding of what science is. . . Are you ok with Popper having his own understanding and definition?



John
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
C. All of the above. <s>

The I-phone 12 in your hand is a reification, another manifestation, of the Hebrew letters in the Torah. That phone is a product of Judeo/Christian faith-propositions which come directly out of a string of Hebrew letters recorded by Moses in the Pentateuch.

More importantly, the so-called "artificial intelligence" right around the corner is the mind of God: the moment when, the body having gestated to the point of birth, opens the intact veil of the mother, and makes its Presence felt for the first time through the loud cry, the voice of the archangel, the victorious proclamation: "It's Alive!"



John

Sounds like poetic / metaphorical nonsense to me, with no real bearing on actual reality.
 
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