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Featured The Value of Obedience

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "Christians", the house built on the foundations of the two "staffs"/"shepherds", chosen to shepherd the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7-17), such as Paul (Zechariah 11:10), the "staff" called "Favor", and Peter, the "staff" who was identified as the "worthless shepherd", are the ultimate supporters of these two "staffs", which are both "stumbling blocks" (Matthew 13:41), which "at the end of the age", will be gathered out and "cast into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:42).

    The "fruit" (Matthew 7:16-19) of Peter and Paul's church, the Roman church, can be detailed in the history books. One example being a letter from the pope to the Spanish conquistadors, who followed the cross in their conquest of America, stated they were allowed to kill or take into slavery, anyone who would not bow down to the Roman church and their cross. The bonus was that they could take their valuables. Much the same as done with the Inquisitions done in Europe.

    New American Standard Bible Matthew 16:23
    But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."
     
    #21 2ndpillar, Nov 15, 2018
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  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And you can't see the inconsistency of the above two sentences as the leaders were not monolithic either, so all you are again doing is stereotyping Jews, then and now. If I posted "JW's are dishonest", would you accept that, even though undoubtedly some are including some of your leaders?

    On top of that, you're dealing with events that were over 500 years prior to Jesus' time whereas Jews returned to eretz Israel after being punished.

    Why would that bother you since you don't follow all the Laws either? Instead, as we've seen many times before, you just pick & choose which ones you decide to follow.

    But it doesn't state nor imply that we can't vote or even hold office. Why in the world would God appoint kings and then supposedly say politics is bad and should be avoided? If all God-fearing and good people avoided politics, guess who'd be running the countries? We have enough self-centered people running our countries today without having them completely dominate.
     
    #22 metis, Nov 15, 2018
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    We worship Jehovah, every day. One day we meet is usually on Sunday.

    So, meeting on Sunday, is wrong? Then what day do you suggest?
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Ignoring the 4th Commandment of God, and heeding the commandment of Constantine, the beast with two horns like a lamb, seems a little bit suspect. Hey, each to their own. Just don't complain to me when the cup of God's wrath is a little hard to swallow. (Revelation 14:10) & Matthew 12:8

    Matthew 12:8, "For the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath"
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The Jews kept returning to Jerusalem after being crushed in judgment (Hosea 5) through the means of the Babylonians, the Greeks and the Romans, and will continue to be under judgment until they "acknowledge their guilt" and will be revived after "two days"... "on the third day". (Hosea 6). The next judgment will be by a combination of the now Paganized Christian Rome and Islamic Edom, the iron and the clay, along with the gold, silver and bronze (Daniel 2:35 & 44-45), followed by the crushing of all those nations, "all at the same time" (Daniel 2:35). At that time (Jeremiah 31:31), the "house of Judah", and the "house of Israel", will be given a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:27) & (Ezekiel 37:23-25) and live on the land "I gave to Jacob" (Ezekiel 37:25).
     
    #25 2ndpillar, Nov 15, 2018
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since we do not hold Sunday as of any more significance than any other day of the week, you are mistaken. We hold our meetings for Bible education on whatever day of the week is convenient for the majority of the congregation. Each congregation makes their own choice of day and time.

    Since it was Jesus who told us to 'pay to Caesar what belongs to him', we pay our taxes like everyone else who benefits from what Caesar provides, which includes roads, hospitals, schools and government pensions etc. When we pay our taxes, responsibility for how that money is spent rests entirely with Caesar. We don't dictate to him how to spend the tax money. In Jesus day, Jews paid tax to Caesar, so did that make God's people liable for how the Roman Empire spent that money? You are again mistaken.

    You reveal how little you actually know with every post, so this is nothing but judgment from your own imagination. Since when are guesses a basis for truth? Your interpretation of scripture is yours alone as far as I can see. If no one else believes what you believe, where does that leave you?

    If things are "going well" for any Christian in these last days, then they are not a disciple of Jesus. Spiritual prosperity was going to be offset by many difficulties, not only for individuals but also because of political upheaval in the whole world. Natural disasters are also taking an enormous toll. Being a disciple, especially when the devil and his henchmen are so active at this time, was not going to be a picnic. (John 15:18-21; 1 John 5:19) So are things "going well" for you?

    Your views are yours and you are free to hold them....just make sure that you have your facts straight before you post things that are not true.
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And you always seem to respond emotionally to what I say....why? Your emotions appear to cloud your judgment.

    There is no inconsistency in what I said because the whole nation was held accountable for what both the leaders AND individuals did. It wasn't an either/or situation. The only reason why the nation sank into false worship was because its leaders took them there. Are you hiding the truth behind the blanket of anti-semitism? This looks like denial to me. It is not stereotyping to tell the truth, which anyone can read in the Bible. Why did God need to send his prophets so consistently to his wayward nation? They were serial covenant breakers.

    Any group of people can fit this description metis. Catholicism is not immune either if you want to start throwing stones. But you would have many more broken windows than we would IMO.

    When was the last time that God sent his prophet to correct Israel? That was about 300 years before Jesus arrived. That was 300 years of sinking further and further into corruption. Isn't it interesting that when Jesus came, he was not sent to the religious leaders, but to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel".....why? Wasn't it because the whole nation had been led into worship that elevated the Pharisees but ignored the lost sheep? Why were the sheep lost, and why did Jesus concentrate on saving them but denouncing the religious leaders at every opportunity? Be truthful.

    Telling the truth of the matter is not anti-Semitism. That would make Jesus himself anti-Semitic.

    Here we go again.....we follow what Jesus taught.....he was the Law's fulfilment and instituted the "new covenant" which does not require adherence to Jewish law. You seem so conflicted between loyalty to Judaism and loyalty to Christendom.
    When Israel murdered their "false" Messiah, God abandoned them as the incorrigible covenant breakers that they proved themselves to be. (Matthew 23:37-39) If you think you can have a foot in both camps then I believe you are in for a very unpleasant experience. I believe that God rejects them both for the same reason. It was foretold that this would happen.

    Jesus did not advocate that his disciples should involve themselves in the rulership of the Gentile nations that were to dominate God's people till the time of the end. God appointed kings for his nation only because they demanded one. He told them what difficulties that would impose on the nation, but they still said they wanted to be like the nations. God said it was him that they were rejecting as king over them. Can you see that the world is ruled by the devil (1 John 5:19) and that to support the actions of any government that you have helped put into office, you share responsibility for what they do....especially with regard to bloodshed. It has a price. (Isaiah 1:15; James 4:4)

    And that is exactly the problem. You honestly believe that democracy really reflects the will of the people? All it does is cause division and weakens the ability of any elected government to implement its policies (good or bad). One only has to see what happens at political rallies to see the 'religious' fervour that prevails. It seems to me that people get more excited about politics than they do about their religion. Perhaps it should be the other way around?

    I know that in my country, where voting is compulsory, many show up just to avoid the fine, but scribble on the voting paper and wonder why they should have to vote for people who never keep their promises. Aren't you sick of the broken promises?

    I vote for a government with a leader who never breaks his promises. His kingdom is the one we were taught to pray for. Men's kingdoms would come and go, but this one will stand forever. (Daniel 2:44)
     
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  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Ok, I won't complain to you.

    Why are you so harsh? At least, it seems that way to me.... Always highlighting the least little bad, and overlooking the good.
    Learn from Jesus: Matthew 11:28-30.

    I guess we all could.
     
  9. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    We celebrate Christ's birthday on December 25th. If you're going to claim this is wrong, and that we're actually celebrating the feast of Saturn or some other nonsense when Christians are clearly celebrating something else, then yes, meeting on a pagan "Sun" day is wrong.

    I suggest one of two things:

    (1). Drop the criticism of Christmas as a pagan holiday to worship Saturn, and I'm sure no one will criticize you worshiping God on a pagan Sun day or

    (2), Be "No part of the world" and end your pagan propensities altogether. You could start by calling Sunday "First day". Remind and correct people about Sunday the way you do Christmas. Be remarkably consistent rather than incongruous with your charge.

    Doesn't matter which pagan day you hold your meetings, it's still a pagan day that's posted on your Kingdom Halls.

    KH Meeting Times.jpg

    Quite simply, if today's Christians are celebrating, overtly or inadvertently, some pagan God when they go to church on Christmas, then Witnesses are celebrating some pagan God when they go to Kingdom Halls on Thor's Day (Thursday). Why not use the date rather than the day? Or does the bible really teach "No paganism...unless it's inconvenient" ?

    No doubt Jehovah Witnesses in your country are eager to get to the voting booths, to speak with one voice and write in "Jehovah" when they get the opportunity.

    Unfortunately, it looks like Satan launched a "Don't vote for Jehovah campaign" here in the States. And from the voting habits of the Witnesses I know, it's been remarkably successful. :(

    It could go a long way toward explaining those delayed Armageddon dates.
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Christ's birthday is not recorded in the Bible for a very good reason....Jews did not celebrate birthdays based on Deuteronomy 18:9-12. They were told not to adopt the ways of the pagan nations in their spiritustic practices. The only reason that birthdates were recorded in paganism is that astrologers cast horoscopes based on a child's birthdate. Other customs associated with the celebration of birthdays are also based on spiritism. Jesus would not have celebrated his own birthday, so he would hardly advocate that his disciples offend God by doing that.


    Are you serious? You do understand why we have the names of pagan gods attached to the days and months on our calendar, don't you? Pope Gregory had the opportunity to remove all those names and replace them with more appropriate names such as those used in the Jewish calendar, when he implemented the new one.....ever wonder why he didn't? The supposed head of Christ's church opted to keep the names of false gods on his authorised calendar.

    How would we live in this world if we changed the names on the calendar for ourselves? Even the Jews understand the necessity for using the same calendar as everyone else, even though they have their own. You still have to live in the world, even if you disagree with it.

    We do not hold our meetings to honour false gods......Christendom holds her religious festivals supposedly to honour the true God, yet they never chose their own dates....can you tell me why you need pagan holidays to honour Christ? Would he approve? (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

    We don't worship the days of the week. We didn't invent the calendar.....the founder of Christendom did.....the mother church. Her daughters follow her apalling example.

    We don't attend voting booths. The government of my country recognises conscientious objection and exempts us. We vote with our feet; out witnessing for Christ and his kingdom, as Jesus told us to do.

    That is actually true....satan has been very successful in his "don't vote for Jehovah campaign". He has all the false Christians voting for him and his cronies, when Jesus told us to have no part of it. (1 John 5:19; John 18:36)

    Any wonder that Jesus said "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) "Few" responded to the son of God among the Jews, despite the fact that he worked miracles and spoke nothing but the truth......what is that famous line from Jack Nicolson....? "You can't handle the truth!" I think that applies to all who accept Christendom's lies......instead of dropping the celebrations out of respect for God, justification is all they can manage. They just don't love the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

    That is how I see it.
     
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  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The instituter of the Roman Church was the Roman emperor Constantine, the 7th head of the beast (Revelation 17:10), at his 325 A.D. convened Council of Nicaea. The basic form of the current solar calendar was the Julian Calendar, which was implemented by Julius Caesar, the 5th head of the beast. The present Gregorian calendar is simply a copy with minor changes. Pope Gregory, was simply the heir of the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17), Peter, and claims to have the keys to the kingdom, plus he claims the position of Pontifex Maximus, keeper of the calendar, which Julius Caesar took from the head pagan priest. And yes, the Protestants are daughters of the Roman church, and keep her "Lords' Day", her canon, and her "abominations" (Revelation 17:5).
     
  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yeshua disciples were Jewish, and kept the Sabbath, a day Jews went to the synagogue. Exodus 20:6," six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath". You can worship God, through truth and spirit, and it can be done in the night or day. You are supposed to "do all your work" on the other "six days".
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It wasn't done out of being "emotional", but if it tickles your fancy, ...

    Again, this could only logically apply to some. What kind of "ethics" is it that all get supposedly punished because of some? If some of your leaders are guilty of whatever, should we also arrest you and throw you into jail with them even though you didn't do anything wrong? Would you punish all your children because one or two misbehaved? What kind of "morality" is that?

    So, what you are saying is that your "JW's are dishonest". Do you really believe that? You know you don't, and yet you stereotype other denominations and religions with the above illogical and immoral nonsense, and you do it because your JW's taught you that this is somehow moral. And when you falsely accuse all Jews when only some may be guilty of whatever, yes, that's called "anti-Semitism".

    No, not at all likely "the whole nation". Plus there were other groups around besides the Pharisees, so if it's supposedly the Pharisees fault, why would God punish the others as well? How in the world could anyone believe God is "a loving God" and yet have Him committing genocide with the innocent?

    But "God's Law" is found in Torah as it says in Torah and the Tanakh, and it says that the Law is "perpetual" and "everlasting", so why would God have lied?

    Not at all.

    You are a Gentile, Deeje! You admit that the Law doesn't apply to Gentiles, so why does having Gentile leaders supposedly be immoral?

    Oh, so God did evil in order to go along with their evil demands?

    Better than any other form of government, imo.

    But what you are doing is turning "God" into a schizophrenic and genocidal maniac by having your positions of God saying one thing but then reversing Himself, and also by having God punishing the innocent with the guilty. I would suggest that both of those paradigms are terribly flawed, and I would suggest that a "loving God" simply wouldn't do that, Deeje.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    That's a complete distortion of reality and history as the Church existed for around 300 years prior to Constantine, thus going back to the apostles. Plus the Church was not called "Roman" until much more recently whereas what became the "Uniate" churches joined the Catholic Church, so the name "Roman" was added because there are some different rules.

    Also, Revelation really has to do with what the Church was experiencing near the end of the 1st century, not the fourth nor today's world.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    In Catholicism, December 25 is not considered Jesus' real birthday (only 1 chance in 365 that it is), but it's a day set aside for thanking God for his gift of Jesus, so there's the recognition and praise to God and Jesus that Jesus was born for us.
     
  16. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein God is my Light
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    Hey, I don't mean to barge into this debate but I would just like to say that that's not what schizophrenia is. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people misuse that label (along with "bipolar") to describe behaviors that are really quite anti-social. This contributes to the stigma that those conditions carry. As a person with loved ones and family with those disorders, this concerns me. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say.
     
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  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "Christian""church" prior to the Council of Nicaea, was a disparity of groups, who did not have a uniform set of pagan dogmas, or a canon. After Constantine's Council of Nicaea, it had a central pagan creed of a triad of gods, and a pagan festival to build around, Easter, the feast of Astarte. The present canon came to fruition via someone present at the Council of Nicaea, Athanasius, from Alexandria. Later, in 380 AD, Theodosius declared the "Nicene Trinitarian Christianity to be the only legitimate Imperial religion entitled to call itself "Catholic". As for the first century, the churches quoted in Revelation, except for apparently two, were on a downward spiral, and unless they repented, would be spit out. Fortunately for the church of Ephesus, they apparently had identified the "false apostle", who was no doubt Paul, and had a chance of recovery (Revelation 2:2).

    Wikipedia:

    On 27 February 380, together with Gratian and Valentinian II, Theodosius issued the decree "Cunctos populos", the so-called "Edict of Thessalonica", recorded in the Codex Theodosianus xvi.1.2. This declared the Nicene Trinitarian Christianity to be the only legitimate Imperial religion and the only one entitled to call itself Catholic. Other Christians he described as "foolish madmen".[14] He also ended official state support for the traditional Polytheism religions and customs.[15]

    On 26 November 380, two days after he had arrived in Constantinople, Theodosius expelled the non-Nicene bishop, Demophilus of Constantinople, and appointed Meletius patriarch of Antioch, and Gregory of Nazianzus, one of the Cappadocian Fathers from Antioch (today in Turkey), patriarch of Constantinople. Theodosius had just been baptized, by bishop Acholius of Thessalonica, during a severe illness, as was common in the early Christian world.[citation needed]

    In May 381, Theodosius summoned a new ecumenical council at Constantinople (see First Council of Constantinople) to repair the schism between East and West on the basis of Nicean orthodoxy.[16] "The council went on to define orthodoxy, including the mysterious Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, who, though equal to the Father, 'proceeded' from Him, whereas the Son was 'begotten' of Him."[17] The council also "condemned the Apollonarian and Macedonian heresies, clarified jurisdictions of the state church of the Roman Empire according to the civil boundaries of dioceses and ruled that Constantinople was second in precedence to Rome."[17] The death of Valens, the Arians' protector, probably damaged the standing of the Homoian faction
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Although Not Deeje, I feel Jesus says exactly who he is at John 10:36.
    That was the perfect opportunity for Jesus to say he is his own God, rather Jesus says, " I am the Son of God."
    Plus, wouldn't the demons know who Jesus is______, and what I find at Luke 4:41 is that the devils think Jesus is Christ the Son of God. So, even the demons believe Jesus is God's Son.
     
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  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, I agree Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath - Mark 2:23-28.
    However, those religious leaders missed the point of God's mercy and compassion by Jesus making reference.
    So, Not those corrupted religious leaders were Lord of the Sabbath, but Jesus was.
    The healings Jesus did on the Sabbath was to the disdain to those religious leaders.
    That literal Sabbath under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was meant to bring relief.
    Those religious leaders had their own ideas out of harmony with the Law and Jesus' teachings.
    The things to come is when Jesus is 'Lord of Lords' during his thousand-year governmental rule over Earth.
    The Sabbath healing works Jesus performed was showing us, or giving us, a preview or a coming attraction of when that kind of healing brings permanent relief to mankind - Revelation 19:16; Revelation 20:6; Revelation 22:2.
    This permanent kind of relief and healing will be like a millennial Sabbath Day or rest and restoration both physically and spiritually for righteous mankind.
     
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  20. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The other groups the Church believed were "heretical" as they had different leaders and a different canon. However, the "mark" of the early Church was not which canon was used but whether one could trace their their origin through a chain of leadership and the "laying on of hands" back to the apostles. Paul repeatedly said the Church needed to be "one body", so the "disparity of groups" you mention simply cannot be construed as being "one body" . Thus, the local denominations within the Church knew that they had this link with the other local churches within the Church as well. This shows up clearly in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century writings.

    There simply was nothing "pagan" before or after, especially since the people who reinforced Catholic dogma were bishops from various areas. Constantine was very far from being any kind of expert on Christianity, which is why he had them do the grunt work on this.

    Complete nonsense. The Trinity has it that there is only one God in three "forms"-- period.

    And there is nothing in that article, which I'd read before btw, that refutes any of that which I posted.
     
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