The Updated Golden Rule

[amorphous_constellation]

Why? Tobit 4:15: "And what you hate, do not do to anyone. ..."

Is that statement supposed to be connected to the next bit in the verse? "..drink not wine to make thee drunken: neither let drunkenness go with thee in thy journey"

So it is telling you, I guess, that you hate drinking to the point of drunkenness, or being in the company of drunkenness on a journey. 'You' hate these, because I suppose they are annoying to the soul, ultimately. So if you make your friend 'drunk' on the things you spoke to him, it becomes counter productive for him

 

[Heyo]

I am not religious but do consider "do unto others what they would do unto you... only do it first " to be an important guide

Pre-emptive reciprocity? You should be very sure about the intentions of the other and even then it could be illegal.

 

[ChristineM]

Pre-emptive reciprocity? You should be very sure about the intentions of the other and even then it could be illegal.

Yes, i know. Most times it's easy to read people and their intentions are generated good, so my guide is pretty cool. On the very few times that it's not then i have a few self defence moves to help, I've never used them in anger though. Yet

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Do unto others nothing, but reflect back the energies they sent your way with that block of nothingness, thereby they might learn more about who they are, and thus they may learn proper interactions with others, since they insist on doing things involving them

 

[JustGeorge]

Perhaps the new suggested golden rule should be "Don't do to others that we know they hate, and if we don't know whether or not they might hate it, ask."

Hold up here, @SalixIncendium... are you suggesting we communicate??

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Good grief. Did I mention sophomoric?

@Shadow Wolf doesn't like hugs. It is true that, not knowing this, I might have erred and hugged her. It is also irrelevant.

But, once informed, I should respect that information if only because I would hate to have my personal taboos violated. Is this truly so hard to understand?

That is why a proper morality must start with the considerations of another. We don't know if a person will like being hugged or not. Thus it is best to ask before hand so we know ahead of time if someone will he made uncomfortable or not. If you know someone likes to be hugged, hug away all you want. If you know someone you know doesn't like hugs, then you know to do something else. But if you don't know then you dont know how this person will react so it's best to ask before act.
What "I" like or hate does not actually consider the other person and their views and feelings. It's what "I" want. But what "I" want may not be good for another. It may not be normal. It may not be proper or ethical.

 

[halbhh]

If you do something that isn't right but that you would want done to you then you are in the right per the golden rule, because you'd want it done to you. That's not abusing it, that is working well within it.

Actually the golden rule is different from that -- it means to imagine or understand as if you were in their shoes, in their situation, then what would you want, in that situation, as that person.

Example: I am very able to change out a flat tire.

Therefore I would not want someone to stop and try to help me, if I were on the side of the road with a flat, and just opening the trunk to find the spare tire....

That's me, the particular person I am.

Ok?

But....if I see a mother with 2 small kids, struggling on the side of the road to change out a flat, I will understand instantly that she needs help and that I or someone should help her, and if no one else is visibly doing so, then I'd think of it as being up to me to do so, or at least stop and ask her.

Did you notice that last part:? -- I'd ask her if she wants help.

Because that is what I'd want someone to do for me.

And...even more: if I can imagine (with effort possibly) being a mother alone with 2 small children -- if I can mentally imagine being in those shoes...it will help inform me of what I should do.

Does this help clarify?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Actually the golden rule is different from that -- it means to imagine or understand as if you were in their shoes, in their situation, then what would you want, in that situation, as that person.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
That is the golden rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[halbhh]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
That is the golden rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

So....
Consider then:

Would you would want someone to ask you, before doing whatever, instead of just doing it without even asking you...?

Yes?

If so, then we are in agreement on the key thing. And the remainder of my post above might be helpful to expand on that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So....
Consider then:

Would you would want someone to ask you, before doing whatever, instead of just doing it without even asking you...?

Yes?

If so, then we are in agreement on the key thing. And the remainder of my post above might be helpful to expand on that.

My whole point has been proper morality doesn't begin with what I want. You have to consider what other people might want, and this is a major shortcoming of the golden rule.
I would ask not because I'd want others to ask, but because I don't know the needs of someone who appears to need help.

 

[halbhh]

My whole point has been proper morality doesn't begin with what I want. You have to consider what other people might want [one part removed here]
I would ask not because I'd want others to ask, but because I don't know the needs of someone who appears to need help.

You are agreeing with me then (on all but the one misunderstanding about wording)... That's an accurate paraphrase of what I said above in the post.

 

[halbhh]

My whole point has been proper morality doesn't begin with what I want. You have to consider what other people might want, and this is a major shortcoming of the golden rule.
I would ask not because I'd want others to ask, but because I don't know the needs of someone who appears to need help.

I think this might show what I mean:

I am very able to change out a flat tire. Therefore I would not want someone to stop and try to help me, if I were on the side of the road with a flat, and just opening the trunk to find the spare tire....

Ok?

But...if I see a mother with 2 small kids, struggling on the side of the road to change out a flat, I will understand instantly that she needs help and that I or someone should help her, and if no one else is visibly doing so, then I'd think of it as being up to me to do so, or at least stop and ask her.

Did you notice that last part:? -- I'd ask her if she wants help.

Because that is what I'd want someone to do for me. (so in this instant I obey the Golden Rule)

And...even more: if I can imagine (with effort possibly) being a mother alone with 2 small children -- if I can mentally imagine being in those shoes...it will help inform me of what I should do.

Does this help clarify?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You are agreeing with me then (on all but the one misunderstanding about wording)... That's an accurate paraphrase of what I said above in the post.

No, it's not.

Did you notice that last part:? -- I'd ask her if she wants help.

Because that is what I'd want someone to do for me.

This is where we do not agree.
Asking because "that is what I'd want someone to do for me."
And
Asking because we do not know what he needs are.

And...even more: if I can imagine (with effort possibly) being a mother alone with 2 small children -- if I can mentally imagine being in those shoes...it will help inform me of what I should do.

This is close, with the major difference being this is where we should begin, not including it as as even more. But with a mind that we may not actually know. Assuming we do know leads to many incidents that turn people into well intentioned ********.

 

[halbhh]

No, it's not.

This is where we do not agree.
Asking because "that is what I'd want someone to do for me."
And
Asking because we do not know what he needs are.

This is close, with the major difference being this is where we should begin, not including it as as even more. But with a mind that we may not actually know. Assuming we do know leads to many incidents that turn people into well intentioned ********.

We have a somewhat different way of using words maybe.

The Golden Rule is why I'd stop and ask the mother of the 2 kids if she wants help changing the tire. (I'm just telling you the straight reality of it for me)

Even though I myself would not want help. But to follow the clear meaning of the Golden rule as stated, I'd need to stop and offer help.

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

I'd do that because it is what I'd want someone to do for me, in that same situation, if I were in a situation like that: with small children and visibly in need of help.

Ah! Here, this might clarify! -- IF I had 2 small kids with me, then I would want help!

That's it. That's what I left out. :-=)

See? -- If I was visibly struggling, then I'd want help. But I'd also want a person stopping to offer help, not impose it on me. So, specifically, I'd want them to offer help.

 

[halbhh]

I finally realized how I might have been unclear, and just added on to the end of the above response a key clarification.

No, it's not.

This is where we do not agree.
Asking because "that is what I'd want someone to do for me."
And
Asking because we do not know what he needs are.

This is close, with the major difference being this is where we should begin, not including it as as even more. But with a mind that we may not actually know. Assuming we do know leads to many incidents that turn people into well intentioned ********.

 

[dybmh]

@halbhh, So the golden rule would benefit from reducing it down to "Ask first"?

 

[halbhh]

@halbhh, So the golden rule would benefit from reducing it down to "Ask first"?

That isn't a bad idea, is it. I do notice that plenty of times people really like it if I check in with them. I like it too when someone does with me.

There is another utility of the golden rule past those obvious situations like the person visibly struggling or other easy cases.

It can also be used as a powerful tool to help think rationally about more complex situations and problems when it isn't so easy to figure out what is one's best course of action or the best solution to some social quandary, etc.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'd do that because it is what I'd want someone to do for me, in that same situation, if I were in a situation like that: with small children and visibly in need of help.

That is still based on you.
Such as, it seems you wouldn't stop to see if what appears to be a young male is stranded. Maybe he has some disability you missed driving past him? Maybe he just discovered his new car didn't come with a spare tire? Maybe he doesn't even know how to change it, and he forgot his cell phone?
The single mom may have everything under control. You don't know. Maybe she's been horrible abused and seeing a single male (apologies if I'm wrong) approach her induces high levels of stress.
You just have to acknowledge for the most part, you can do your best to treat others well, but you will make mistakes, so you try to make fewer mistakes. Because, as we've acknowledged, how I want to be treated is not necessarily the best way to act. Thus we are considering what others may want above what we want.

 

[halbhh]

That is still based on you.
Such as, it seems you wouldn't stop to see if what appears to be a young male is stranded. Maybe he has some disability you missed driving past him? Maybe he just discovered his new car didn't come with a spare tire? Maybe he doesn't even know how to change it, and he forgot his cell phone?
The single mom may have everything under control. You don't know. Maybe she's been horrible abused and seeing a single male (apologies if I'm wrong) approach her induces high levels of stress.
You just have to acknowledge for the most part, you can do your best to treat others well, but you will make mistakes, so you try to make fewer mistakes. Because, as we've acknowledged, how I want to be treated is not necessarily the best way to act. Thus we are considering what others may want above what we want.

Good questions to consider. So here is how that works:

That's part of the wonderful helpfulness of the full-form golden rule -- "In everything, do for others as you would have others do for you" --

To actually do this wording (not just part of it, but with the "as yourself" part) entails:

A) that I look (so other people are no longer merely stereotyped, but seen as persons, equally important to myself!)

B) that only one part (but a part) is I consider their situation in a...equal importance to myself way -- so that I gauge also what I might feel if I were in that situation, such as whether I'd want someone to offer help... With my limited knowledge, but only as preliminary (this is possibly all part of just looking)

C) and even that typically, usually, in most situations I'd check in with the person directly by asking or offering about what they might need, in order to:

D) Listen to them. (and/or see their reaction/expression)

Because this all -- A through D -- is what I would want.

And...

Notice though: I'm not expected to be more smart/clever/wise/observant than I am.

My good faith effort is all the rule requires -- not more than me, not a higher standard than I can do -- just what I can do, and according to my ability and condition.

So, in this way the full form rule is really perfect. It doesn't ask for something that I could not even do.

It's perfectly fit to the individual. It helps the person actualize.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

equal importance to myself way

See? It's still based on me. People you know, you probably know mutually how to treat others (such as the earlier hugging example). But, random encounters, such as someone stranded on the road, we really can't access much from a moment's glance or process things until we're down the road. It's likely we miss more than we see. So we can't assume this "equal importance to me" because our understanding of the situation is probably not close to equal.