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"The Universe is Indifferent to Us": Fact or Opinion?

Do you think you can prove that the universe is deferential to us?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • No

    Votes: 13 44.8%
  • Don't know/other/no opinion

    Votes: 9 31.0%

  • Total voters
    29

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Do you consider the notion that the universe is indifferent to us to be a fact or an opinion? By "indifferent", I mean that the universe does not care about you, and is neither against you nor for you.

If you consider the notion that the universe is indifferent to us to be a fact, do you also believe you could prove that it was indifferent to us? If so, how?

If you consider the notion that the universe is indifferent to us to be a mere opinion, do you also believe you could prove that it is deferential to us (that is, that it somehow sides for or against us)? If so, how?
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Do you consider the notion that the universe is indifferent to us to be a fact or an opinion? By "indifferent", I mean that the universe does not care about you, and is neither against you nor for you.

If you consider the notion that the universe is indifferent to us to be a fact, do you also believe you could prove that it was indifferent to us? If so, how?

If you consider the notion that the universe is indifferent to us to be a mere opinion, do you also believe you could prove that it wasn't indifferent to us? If so, how?


Universe? We don't need no stinkin' universe...
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
My opinion is that the statement "The universe is indifferent to us" is a true statement. I believe I can muster evidence that would bolster such a position, but I would not go so far as to say I can "prove" it to be so.

The use of the double-negative construction makes your question tricksy...at least for me this early in the morning. :p You cannot prove a general negative; it's difficult to prove a positive statement and am doubtful about this case.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This thread feels like it belongs in the WTF DIR, but I'll give it a shot. The universe is made up of many parts, if any one part of the universe having an opinion of us means the universe has an opinion of us then yes. Because I am part of the Universe and have an opinion of us, but don't ask me what it is.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
That's a popular opinion, but no professional logician subscribes to it. For one thing, the statement "You cannot prove a general negative" is itself a negative, so if it were true, it would be false.
Don't argue with a Sicilian when death is on the line! I know where the iocaine powder is!
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I'm not a professional logician, but in my profession I've learned a bit about it.

To make it amenable to evaluation in the manner we do in the social sciences, we need to properly construct a Null Hypothesis, which is most simply a statement that "there is no evidence of X."

In this case, "indifference" throws a curve in the fomulation, as it would be "there is no evidence that the universe is not different (deferential) to us." Instead, we should use the construction "there is no evidence that the universe is deferential to us."

The alternative hypothesis would be "There is evidence that the universe is deferential to us."

we would then assess the data available, the evidence, usually statistically, to determine whether the evidence for the null hypothesis suggests that we should--at least provisionally--accept the null (called failing to reject the null because we find insufficient evidence to reject it), or reject the null because there is enough evidence to suggest that the null is not and the alternative may be the case.

The problem then becomes your definitions, and what exactly serves as your source of data, and how it is analyzed.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm not a professional logician, but in my profession I've learned a bit about it.

To make it amenable to evaluation in the manner we do in the social sciences, we need to properly construct a Null Hypothesis, which is most simply a statement that "there is no evidence of X."

In this case, "indifference" throws a curve in the fomulation, as it would be "there is no evidence that the universe is not different (deferential) to us." Instead, we should use the construction "there is no evidence that the universe is deferential to us."

The alternative hypothesis would be "There is evidence that the universe is deferential to us."

we would then assess the data available, the evidence, usually statistically, to determine whether the evidence for the null hypothesis suggests that we should--at least provisionally--accept the null (called failing to reject the null because we find insufficient evidence to reject it), or reject the null because there is enough evidence to suggest that the null is not and the alternative may be the case.

The problem then becomes your definitions, and what exactly serves as your source of data, and how it is analyzed.

"Deferential"! That was the word I was looking for! Thanks! I've edited the poll and OP now.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I mean, if the planet can't work up enough difference to close up that hole, how can we expect the whole universe to really care...?

I know there's such a thing as a sunny disposition, but I don't think that's because the sun is actually cheerful. Has anyone noticed any sort of behavior coming from the inanimate entity that is the universe?
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
"Deferential"! That was the word I was looking for! Thanks! I've edited the poll and OP now.
well, the other term I considered inserting there is "cares" about us; it cares or it doesn't care...

But I'm still not sure what kind of evidence would be acceptable to show that, by its absence, it would cause us to fail to reject the null, and by its presence, would cause us to reject the null and accept the alternative...
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I mean, if the planet can't work up enough difference to close up that hole, how can we expect the whole universe to really care...?

I know there's such a thing as a sunny disposition, but I don't think that's because the sun is actually cheerful. Has anyone noticed any sort of behavior coming from the inanimate entity that is the universe?
Well, I might say I've personally observed net overall indifferent behavior on the part of the portion of the universe that I've experienced. some things that I think are positive (other humans, dogs and cats, etc.) are balanced by things that I think are negative (other humans, animals like lions and bears that seem to want to eat us, bacteria, etc., that make us sick, etc.); and I also see that most of the universe doesn't seem to like or dislike us...
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Give me your best reason why :D Not to prove or disprove, but to simply understand your point of view :)

For one thing, the notion the universe is deferential to us -- either by siding with us or by siding against us -- does not seem to be a necessary hypothesis to explain the universe.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I mean, if the planet can't work up enough difference to close up that hole, how can we expect the whole universe to really care...?

I know there's such a thing as a sunny disposition, but I don't think that's because the sun is actually cheerful. Has anyone noticed any sort of behavior coming from the inanimate entity that is the universe?
I believe the universe exists for the sole purpose of vexing me.
 
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Parchment

Active Member
I think it would be pretty arrogant to think that for some reason that all the knowns and unknowns were somehow created just for us special little beasties.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
For one thing, the notion the universe is deferential to us -- either by siding with us or by siding against us -- does not seem to be a necessary hypothesis to explain the universe.
Must it be necessary? Is it necessary to understand the universe is not deferential to anything?
 
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