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Featured The Unitarian Problem

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You call yourself a disciple of Jesus, but why on earth would you be a disciple of someone you don't consider to be good? Can a person be truly holy, and not be good?

    Psalm 145:17. 'The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.'

    John 10:11. 'I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.'

    I think you have misunderstood what Jesus says in Matthew 19. Nowhere does he actually say that he is not good. He says that only God is good. If Jesus Christ is good, then he must also be one with God the Father. John 10:30. 'I and my Father are one.'
     
  2. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    And he also tells God is greater than him. How can Jesus be God, if Jesus himself says God is greater than him? If Jesus is the one and only true God, why would he say:

    This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
    John 17:3
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ mediates between God and men. He is able to mediate by being fully God and fully man.

    Philippians 2:9-11. 'Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.'


    Isaiah 45:22-24. 'Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
    I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.'

    Isaiah says that every knee shall bow 'unto me', God. Yet, every knee bows to Jesus. How do you explain this?
     
  4. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    People can bow to many. But, by what the Bible tells, Jesus is the temple of God and God lives in Jesus. So, if one bows to Jesus, he bows also to God, because God is also there.

    Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works…
    John 14:10

    Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
    John 2:19-21

    Most assuredly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me."
    John 13:20
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree. God lives in Jesus. And it's not just a bit of God. The substance of the Father, the Spirit of truth, lives in Jesus. That's why I am able to say of Jesus Christ, My Lord and my God [John 20:28]. That's why Jesus Christ, as mediator, is fully God and fully man!

    John 10:27: 'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.'
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    So, if you put water on a bucket, does the bucket become water?
     
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  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Well, you would do well to listen to the words of Jesus: 'If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.'
    [John 7:37,38]

    Also John 4:10: 'If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.'

    So who is able to give you living water? If you don't take water from the bucket, where do you expect to get the water from?
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the "without measure" in this case is in reference to words spoken by God. I think the distinction Jesus is making is that a prophet gets a word here and there but Jesus actually speaks the words of God.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is not but I wouldn't upturn the bucket over someones head assuming no water was in it. One must recognize God in Jesus as the one speaking and doing the miracles.
     
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    John 3:33 says, 'for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him'. I do agree, however, that having the Spirit without measure must also mean that Jesus Christ consistently speaks the words of God.
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The Universalists don’t seem to have the problem with this non-issue that you’ve managed to dream up.
     
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  12. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Redemptionsong,

    When you are baptized in the name, for the remission of your sins - that is what it means to be born of the water. Being born of the water is referring to our water baptism, it is not referring to natural birth.

    Then when you are filled with the Holy Spirit - that is what it means to be born of the Spirit.

    The kingdom of God is his church. To get into the true church you must obey the plan of salvation, as taught by Peter (the man given the keys to the kingdom) in Acts 2:38

    Hope this helps.
     
    #152 TrueBeliever37, Dec 25, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  13. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    There is only one God. That one God is a Spirit (John 4:24) not 3 different persons. God didn't have flesh and blood to shed for man's sins. So the Spirit made himself a body to dwell in, and sacrifice for man's sin. The eternal Spirit was the Father of that body, so he could call the body his Son. But it was still YHWH dwelling in that body. The Father was the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body, and the Son was the fleshly body itself. But it wasn't two distinct persons. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son (his own body) that whosoever believed in him could be saved.

    When prayer was made, it was the flesh crying out to the Spirit for strength.

    When he said the Father is greater, it is because the Spirit is greater than the flesh.

    After he shed his blood, the Spirit raised the body up a glorified eternal spiritual body, and he ascended and took the throne to rule forever.
     
    #153 TrueBeliever37, Dec 25, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hi,
    For quite some time, I took the same view as you on the matter of water in John 3:5. But in the context of the discussion with Nicodemus, it now seems more likely, to me, that the reference is to child birth. The reason I would give is that in John 3:4 it says, 'Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?' It's in response to this that Jesus says, 'Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'

    I accept that all who come to Christ must repent of their sin, as stated in Acts 2:38, such that the human will shows a willingness to turn, to die to self, and walk instead in the light of Christ. It is only when this heart of repentance and willingness to follow Christ is made known to God that the Spirit falls, and that baptism in the Spirit takes place. Interestingly, repentance in the heart does not appear to be the same as the ritual of water baptism. The ritual is more for the sake of other members of the Church, that they might know a person's true intention. This is why, when Cornelius and his household received Christ as Saviour they were baptised in the Spirit before ever receiving water baptism [see Acts 10:44-48].

    If Jesus is referring to repentance in John 3:5, then I'm happy to accept that, too. I know that repentance, and faith in Jesus Christ are necessary if one is to be born again and enter the kingdom of God, the Church.


    Again, I accept much of what you say here. There are many versions of Trinitarianism! Yes, IMO there is only one God. Yes, the Father, God, dwells in the Son, a body of flesh and blood. The Father also dwells within members of the body of Christ, the Church. I'm very happy to dispense with the theological terminology if necessary!

    My objection to traditional Unitarian belief is the refusal to accept Jesus Christ as worthy of worship and service. I believe Jesus Christ is my Lord, and my God. To deny that Jesus Christ is God (as the risen Lord) is, IMO, to fail to understand the redemptive plan with God as our Saviour.
     
    #154 Redemptionsong, Dec 26, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    My issue is with Unitarianism. Universalism has more to do with the issue of who goes to hell.

    To be more specific, I have trouble with the notion that God the Father has NOT come to earth to save. I believe that Jesus Christ is 'God with us', Immanuel.
     
  16. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Again: they don’t seem to have this problem you describe.
     
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  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Are you speaking as a Unitarian, or for Unitarians?
     
  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    For the Unitarians with whom I am personally acquainted.
     
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  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you could ask your acquaintances how they think salvation is achieved?
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist My baby niece

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    I am a unitarian universalist. So far I've learned that Universalist believe all people go to be with god and Unitarians believe there is no hell. They accept the role of jesus christ as a teacher depending on the church and where the members "lean." It's a highly humanist organization.

    So there isn't a need for salvation since god, to many, approves all people equally. Our actions and communion determine how far we are from god but they don't confirm an eternal separation from god just a learning experience to be with him forever (which means a pleasant death for some or perfect joy to others).

    While I'm not on the christian end of things, they have a varied of view-but the biggest difference is no hell and god saves all.
     
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