The Uncanonized Books

[Tumah]

While Jewish Enoch was extremely popular as evidenced by the number of copies found in the Qumran library - (11 copies were found, and, outside the Pentateuch, only psalms was evident in more numbers). However popular Jewish Enoch was in the various early Judaisms and their various canons, later rabbinic Judaism would have eschewed it for various reasons. For example, it would fall prey to the later rabbinic prohibition regarding questions and study surrounding the pre-creation time periods.

Deuteronomy 4:32 in Hebrew Masoretic translation reads : “For inquire now regarding the early days that preceded you, from the day when God created man on the earth and from one end of heaven to the other end of heaven:...”

The rabbinic Jews interpreted this scripture as a prohibition of inquiry regarding periods of time BEFORE God created the earth. In Gen Rabba, the rabbis teach the Jews : "IT is forbidden to inquire what existed before creation, as Moses distinctly tells us (Deut. 4. 32): 'Ask now of the days that are past which were before thee, since the day God created man upon earth.' Thus the scope of inquiry is limited to the time since the Creation.–(Gen. Rabba 1)

Such prohibitions against inquiring and learning about conditions that existed in heaven before the creation create barriers to learning many, many of the earlier doctrines concerning God; concerning his plan and his motives and conditions that allow mortality to make much more sense.

Sorry this is wrong. I actually own a book of Enoch with commentary by one of the major Israeli Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis. It isn't in our Bible because it doesn't qualify for it, same as all other Rabbinic books. The reason we don't spend too much time with it, is because since it wasn't considered a vital text, it wasn't preserved and so there is likely mistakes. But from a theological standpoint there's nothing wrong with it.

Similarly, your citation from sacred-texts is wrong. The prohibition is not against studying what happened before G-d created man on earth - and that's not what Gen. Rabbah says either. The author misunderstood the Midrash, only quoted half of the statement from the particular Rabbi and was unaware that the passage is actually a paraphrase of a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud. The prohibition is from before the first day of creation. In Jewish sources angels are created after the first day of creation.

Jumping to conclusions while relying on faulty translations are typical of which religion, everybody?

 

[Clear]

1) MODERN RABBINIC JUDAISM NO LONGER USES AN ENOCH IN ITS CANON
tumah replied (post #21) : "Sorry this is wrong. I actually own a book of Enoch with commentary by one of the major Israeli Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis. It isn't in our Bible because it doesn't qualify for it, same as all other Rabbinic books."

Hi Tumah, While Jewish Enoch is not in your current library of sacred texts, it certainly was in the early library of the Jews that created and read the Jewish version and it was in the early Christian library, and still IS in the eastern library (which was my point). It also WAS in the Jewish library in Qumran and, in great numbers and was popular. When you imply “it doesn’t qualify”, what do you mean? Can I assume one reason is that the later rabbinic Jews, (e.g. your “ultra-orthodox Rabbi”) found that it did not agree with the doctrines they adopted and taught?

I very much agree with you that Later rabbinic Judaism eschewed the book of Enoch and rabbinic Judaism would have abandoned it partly due to its discussion of pre-earth, pre-adamanic history especially since such early Jewish histories were both present in early Judaism and they agreed with Christian and Islamic histories in specific, uncomfortable areas of doctrines.

While I agree that LATER rabbinic Judaism abandoned such early histories because of the Jewish prohibition (and thus such literature would no longer “qualify”), still, the later prohibition of early Jewish traditions left the later various forms of rabbinic Judaism bereft of knowledge which would have been helpful to them and which was helpful to the early Christian religion (which inherited much of their theology from the early Jewish religions).

To the extent that the Jews excluded early data, Jesus’ specific criticism of the teachers of the Jews of his time on this point was correct. Historians will all tell you that the larger the stream of historical data, the great the accumulation of historical knowledge.



2) TUMAHS' JUDAISM DOESN'T "SPEND MUCH TIME WITH" THE BOOK OF ENOCH AND THE BOOK LIKELY HAS MISTAKES IN IT
tumah replied (post #21) : The reason we don't spend too much time with it, is because since it wasn't considered a vital text, it wasn't preserved and so there is likely mistakes. But from a theological standpoint there's nothing wrong with it.

I agree that Enoch is not considered vital by modern, rabbinic Judaism and that this rabbinic religion does not "spend much time" with Enoch. I am not speaking of the later rabbinic Judaism, but rather I was speaking of early Judaism that did use the Book of Enoch. We are speaking of two different religions. I very much agree with you that the book of Enoch has mistakes in it. ALL old manuscripts of any particular size have mistakes. The Massoretes give us entire LISTS of mistakes they noticed in creating the Jewish Masoretic bible. However, the fact that there are many mistakes in the Jewish bible, does not prevent us from using it.


3) THE MULTIPLE RABBINIC PROHIBITIONS AGAINST INQUIRIES INTO AND STUDY OF PRE-CREATION TEXTUAL TRADITIONS
tumah replied (post #21) : Similarly, your citation from sacred-texts is wrong. The prohibition is not against studying what happened before G-d created man on earth - and that's not what Gen. Rabbah says either. The author misunderstood the Midrash, only quoted half of the statement from the particular Rabbi and was unaware that the passage is actually a paraphrase of a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud. The prohibition is from before the first day of creation. In Jewish sources angels are created after the first day of creation.

The citation is correct but it IS incomplete and doesn’t tell us more of what Rabbi Yonah wrote (who is rendering this opinion in the name of Rabbi Levi).

The larger quote from Jewish Mishna is : “Just as a bet is closed on all sides and open in the front, so you are not permitted to say, "What is beneath? What is above? What came before? What will come after?" Rather from the day the world was created and after. Bar Kappara said: "You have but to inquire about bygone ages that came before you [ever since God created humanity on earth]" (Deuteronomy 4:32). From the moment God created them you may speculate, however you may not speculate on what was before that. ["From one end of Heaven to the other"] on this you may speculate and investigate, but you may not speculate and investigate 0n what was before".

The rabbinic justification that one is not allowed to inquire about pre-adamic history “because” the hebrew letter “beit” is open in the “forward” direction is irrational and illogical, thus it is suspected that an entirely different reason for Rabbis to prohibit inquiry and study must be assumed. Also, whether the prohibition prohibited rabbinic Jews from inquires into what happened before Creation of the earth or creation of Adam, each of the two prohibitions still has the exact same effect that I mentioned. Later rabbinic Judaism would have lost all such knowledge and traditions within a single generation.

While Rabbi Yonah offers this prohibition as meaning “since God created humanity”, this is not the only context for prohibition of inquiry. For example, there are other, similar prohibitions.

For example : Another prohibition regarding creation itself, or the explanation of the prohibition concerning inquiry is given by R Chaina in the Mishna.

Rabbi Yossi Bar Chaina explains that the reason one is not to inquire about the creation of the world itself, is because it was made from Chaotic material that he compares to a “trash dump” (sewers, dunghills, and garbage” are his words). And it was seen as “disrespectful” such that no one is to remind this King about what sort of "degrading" place his palace was built upon. To do so, would both “discredit” the creation and it would dishonor the king who built it. The quote I am speaking of from Jewish Mishna is as follows :

"…In pride"--to boast and say: "I can explain creation." "And contempt"--to hold My glory in contempt. As Rabbi Yossi Bar Chanina said: One who honor's oneself at the expense of one's friend has no share in the World to Come. How much more so with the honor of God! And it says afterward (Psalms 31:20): "How abundant is Your goodness that you have laid up for those who fear You." Those who fear You and not for those who hold Your awe in contempt. When a king builds a palace in a place of sewers, dunghills, and garbage, everyone who says: "This palace is built on sewers, dunghills, and garbage" discredits it. So too, everyone who says the universe was created from nothingness discredits it.”


4) THEORIES REGARDING THE REAL REASON RABBINIC JUDAISM PROHIBITED INQUIRY INTO AND STUDY OF EARLY JEWISH PRE-CREATION TEXTUAL TRADITIONS
The Rabbinic justification given for this first prohibition against study of pre-adamic creation and inquiry is Irrational and illogical. It is quite silly to suggest that the shape of the letter “beit” is open on the front and not the back, and therefore the Jews cannot look backwards (beyond creation). The fact that this justification is so bizzare suggests that there is another real reason the rabbis did not want the Jews to inquire into this knowledge.

One better theory is that the rabbis of rabbinic Judaism created this rule in the post exilic period for a safeguard against Idolotry. Some Jews saw the Babylonian exile as a punishment (partly) because Israel had worshiped other Gods. The early Jewish texts speak of other beings who were glorified and powerful and directed by God in the processes of creation. Such early texts were quite consistent with the Christian claim regarding Jesus as the Messiah. It makes sense for post exilic rabbis to attempt to stamp out any possibility of worship they deemed inappropriate by prohibiting inquiries into the such early Jewish histories.

IF this was the actual reason for a rabbinic prohibition of such inquiry and study, then I think the Rabbis thought they were doing the “right thing” by prohibiting knowledge of such things. However, in this case, any benefit of a prohibition of study of early Jewish traditions did not outweigh the harm of ignorance of and loss of early Jewish traditions.

Of course the various Judaisms did not agree on doctrines and the early Jewish textual traditions were different than the later rabbinic Judaism. This also would be a powerful motive for rabbinic Judaism to prohibit study of conflicting doctrines.

Does your modern Jewish religion have another reason to prohibit the study of and inquiry into what happened before creation?


5) JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS REGARDING SCHOLARS JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS
tumah replied (post #21) : Jumping to conclusions while relying on faulty translations are typical of which religion, everybody?

I do not think Christian religious historians are “jumping to conclusions”. I think the reasoning for these tentative theories are founded on fairly good evidence. Having said this, most historical theories are tentative and subject to improvement as data improves. I think the current base data pushes us in this direction of how and why Jewish religion evolved and changed from its earlier forms into its later various forms.


I hope this added data is helpful Tumah

Clear
φιακνεω

 

[The Anointed]

Sorry this is wrong. I actually own a book of Enoch with commentary by one of the major Israeli Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis. It isn't in our Bible because it doesn't qualify for it, same as all other Rabbinic books. The reason we don't spend too much time with it, is because since it wasn't considered a vital text, it wasn't preserved and so there is likely mistakes. But from a theological standpoint there's nothing wrong with it.

Similarly, your citation from sacred-texts is wrong. The prohibition is not against studying what happened before G-d created man on earth - and that's not what Gen. Rabbah says either. The author misunderstood the Midrash, only quoted half of the statement from the particular Rabbi and was unaware that the passage is actually a paraphrase of a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud. The prohibition is from before the first day of creation. In Jewish sources angels are created after the first day of creation.

Jumping to conclusions while relying on faulty translations are typical of which religion, everybody?

According to the ancient writings, it was in the days of Enoch’s Father ‘Jared’, which name means ‘Descending,’ that 200 Sons of God, who Enoch describes as watchers or rather OBSERVERS, descended and introduced into the primitive culture of mankind, technology that was about equivalent to that which had been achieved three thousand years in the future.

And in the Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, it is written that it was in the days of DESCENDING=Jared [The physical father of Enoch] that the Sons of God abandoned their own original habitat and defiled themselves with the daughters of man.

Concerning Azazel, we read in the Book of Enoch the prophet, chapter 9 to chapter 10; “And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.

Semjaza, the leader of the observers, taught enchantments, and root cutting, among other sons of God who revealed to the women all kinds of sin, were Armaros, who taught the resolving of enchantments, Baralqual taught astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon, etc.

But Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

The Lord, through his only begotten prophet Enoch, then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men, saying to them; “You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew only worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth.”

They were then to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, See the Book of Enoch the Prophet 10: 4-9; “And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5) in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7) not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8) Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9) through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.

“TO ‘AZAZEL’ ASCRIBE ALL SIN.”

In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. See Leviticus 16: 20-22.

If Moses did not receive this religious regulation from the words of righteous Enoch, then pray tell, from where did Moses receive the information that all sin was to be ascribed to ‘AZAZEL:?”

 

[Tumah]

According to the ancient writings, it was in the days of Enoch’s Father ‘Jared’, which name means ‘Descending,’ that 200 Sons of God, who Enoch describes as watchers or rather OBSERVERS, descended and introduced into the primitive culture of mankind, technology that was about equivalent to that which had been achieved three thousand years in the future.

And in the Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, it is written that it was in the days of DESCENDING=Jared [The physical father of Enoch] that the Sons of God abandoned their own original habitat and defiled themselves with the daughters of man.

Concerning Azazel, we read in the Book of Enoch the prophet, chapter 9 to chapter 10; “And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.

Semjaza, the leader of the observers, taught enchantments, and root cutting, among other sons of God who revealed to the women all kinds of sin, were Armaros, who taught the resolving of enchantments, Baralqual taught astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon, etc.

But Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

The Lord, through his only begotten prophet Enoch, then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original habitat and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men, saying to them; “You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew only worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth.”

They were then to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) but Azazel was punished separate from the others, See the Book of Enoch the Prophet 10: 4-9; “And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5) in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7) not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8) Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9) through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.

“TO ‘AZAZEL’ ASCRIBE ALL SIN.”

In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. See Leviticus 16: 20-22.

If Moses did not receive this religious regulation from the words of righteous Enoch, then pray tell, from where did Moses receive the information that all sin was to be ascribed to ‘AZAZEL:?”

Can I get a tl;dr?
What do you want here?

 

[SugarOcean]

In Protestant Circles I don't think the Book of Enoch made the cut in the bible, though I don't know if the Catholics or Mormons accept it? There are just lots of books that were contemporary with the Authors of the Bible. For example, there is one work that describes the Christian version of the day Jesus was Crucified, and there is another that does the Muslim version. So, yes, the Muslims did have a reason for taking the stance they did.

Most people know that the Jews disavow the whole thing, and I don't care.

I may have read the Book of Enoch years ago and don't remember anything so I'll have to do it again.

"They" don't want you reading the books not in the Bible. Hmmmm.

The 1611 (year published) King James Bible, AKA 1611 KJV, contained the Book of Enoch and the Apocrypha. That version is published today as well.


Book of Enoch @ Sacred Texts

 

[The Anointed]

Can I get a tl;dr?
What do you want here?

What do I want here?

If you lacked the ability to comprehend my question, let me here repeat it: "“TO ‘AZAZEL’ ASCRIBE ALL SIN.”

In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. See Leviticus 16: 20-22.

Below, Leviticus 16: 10.

י וְהַשָּׂעִיר, אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַעֲזָאזֵל, יָעֳמַד-חַי לִפְנֵי יְהוָה, לְכַפֵּר עָלָיו--לְשַׁלַּח אֹתוֹ לַעֲזָאזֵל, הַמִּדְבָּרָה. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before the LORD, to make atonement over him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness.

If Moses did not receive this religious regulation from the words of righteous Enoch, then pray tell, from where did Moses receive the information that all sin was to be ascribed to ‘AZAZEL:?”
:

 

[Tumah]

What do I want here?

If you lacked the ability to comprehend my question, let me here repeat it: "“TO ‘AZAZEL’ ASCRIBE ALL SIN.”

In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. See Leviticus 16: 20-22.

Below, Leviticus 16: 10.

י וְהַשָּׂעִיר, אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַעֲזָאזֵל, יָעֳמַד-חַי לִפְנֵי יְהוָה, לְכַפֵּר עָלָיו--לְשַׁלַּח אֹתוֹ לַעֲזָאזֵל, הַמִּדְבָּרָה. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be set alive before the LORD, to make atonement over him, to send him away for Azazel into the wilderness.

If Moses did not receive this religious regulation from the words of righteous Enoch, then pray tell, from where did Moses receive the information that all sin was to be ascribed to ‘AZAZEL:?”
:

Uh... are you asking how a prophet who speaks to G-d on the regular, would have received information?

 

[The Anointed]

Uh... are you asking how a prophet who speaks to G-d on the regular, would have received information?

Are you suggesting that God verbally told Moses what Enoch had recorded long before the flood, and that was, that of all the sons of God, who had abandoned their own original habitat AND DESCENDED IN THE DAYS OF JARED, it was only Azazel, who taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc, to whom all sin was to be ascribed?

Don't play your silly games mate, there is no other record except for the writings of righteous Enoch, that reveals it was Azazel and Azazel alone, to whom all sin was to be ascribed.

Enoch, the chosen cornerstone to God's new temple of Light, which is to replace on earth, his old physical tabernacle (The body of Mankind) wherein the innermost sanctuary, behind the veil of the flesh, dwells our parental spirit.

Enoch, who was carried to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as the successor to that throne, was the living spirit in Abraham, the cornerstone to who all the righteous spirits were gathered in his ascension to the throne of the Most High in the creation, and the stone that the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine have rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

Enoch once transformed as the angel 'Metatron' was given the name; "The Lesser JHWH," or the son of JHWH, wrote in the Book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11-13; “And now I will summons the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who, in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name and I will seat each one on the throne of his honour. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.”

 

[Tumah]

Are you suggesting that God verbally told Moses what Enoch had yada yada yada

Nope. I'm explicitly saying that G-d verbally told Moses exactly what to write and that includes ideas that had relevancy to a time long before Moses lived.

 

[The Anointed]

Nope. I'm explicitly saying that G-d verbally told Moses exactly what to write and that includes ideas that had relevancy to a time long before Moses lived.

I will let other decide from where did Moses receive the information that it was to Azazel, the son of God, that all sin was to be ascribed. See Post #23.

THE TESTAMENTS OF THE TWELVE PATRIARCHS
From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament by R. H. Charles, vol. II, Oxford Press

Reuben 5: 6; recounts the writings of Enoch concerning the Watchers/Observers; "For thus they allured the Watchers who were before the flood; for as these continually beheld them, they lusted after them, and they conceived the act in their mind; for they changed themselves into the shape of men, and 7 appeared to them when they were with their husbands. And the women lusting in their minds after their forms, gave birth to giants, for the Watchers appeared to them as reaching even unto heaven."

Simeon 5: 4; I have seen it inscribed in the writing of Enoch that your sons shall be corrupted in fornication, 5 and shall do harm to the sons of Levi with the sword. But they shall not be able to withstand Levi; 6 for he shall wage the war of the Lord, and shall conquer all your hosts

Levi 10:5; For the house which the Lord shall choose shall be called Jerusalem, as is contained in the book of Enoch the righteous.

Dan 5: 6; . [For I have read in the book of Enoch, the righteous, that your prince is Satan, and that all the spirits of wickedness and pride will conspire to attend constantly on the sons of Levi, to cause them to sin before the Lord.

Benjamin 9:1-5; And I believe that there will be also evil-doings among you, from the words of Enoch the righteous: that ye shall commit fornication with the fornication of Sodom, and shall perish, all save a few, and shall renew wanton deeds with women; and the kingdom of the Lord shall not be among, you, for straightway He shall take it away. 2 Nevertheless the temple of God shall be in your portion, and the last (temple) shall be more glorious than the first. And the twelve tribes shall be gathered together there, and all the Gentiles, until the Most High shall send forth His salvation in the visitation of an only 3 begotten prophet. [And He shall enter into the [first] temple, and there shall the Lord be treated with outrage, and He shall be lifted up upon 4 a tree. And the veil of the temple shall be rent, and the Spirit of God shall pass on to the Gentiles 5 as fire poured forth. And He shall ascend from Hades and shall pass from earth into heaven. And I know how lowly He shall be upon earth, and how glorious in heaven.]

Although there are more references to Enoch in the Testament of the 12 Patriarchs, this is enough to show, that while in Egypt, the Israelites read from the words of righteous Enoch, according to the oral tradition of the Hebrews who handed down these stories from generation to generation.

Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross, deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into Hades to communicate with the Gods.

Moses, who was the adopted grandson of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country, may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets.

Moses took the bread or the sacred teachings of Egypt [The land of First Born] and removed the yeast and gave to the children of Israel the regulations, rules and laws, that the Israelites were to keep for all time. --------- In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. What or who, is this Azazel?

In the margins of the Good News Catholic Study Bible, Leviticus 16: concerning “Azazel” it is written by the Catholic authors of the GNB; ‘AZAZEL’ “The meaning of this Hebrew word is unknown: it may be the name of a desert demon.” ‘Azazel’ see Leviticus16: 8.

They wouldn’t have a clue; “The Stone that the builders rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.”

 

[Tumah]

I will let other decide from where did Moses receive the information that it was to Azazel, the son of God, that all sin was to be ascribed. See Post #23.

THE TESTAMENTS OF THE TWELVE PATRIARCHS
From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament by R. H. Charles, vol. II, Oxford Press

Reuben 5: 6; recounts the writings of Enoch concerning the Watchers/Observers; "For thus they allured the Watchers who were before the flood; for as these continually beheld them, they lusted after them, and they conceived the act in their mind; for they changed themselves into the shape of men, and 7 appeared to them when they were with their husbands. And the women lusting in their minds after their forms, gave birth to giants, for the Watchers appeared to them as reaching even unto heaven."

Simeon 5: 4; I have seen it inscribed in the writing of Enoch that your sons shall be corrupted in fornication, 5 and shall do harm to the sons of Levi with the sword. But they shall not be able to withstand Levi; 6 for he shall wage the war of the Lord, and shall conquer all your hosts

Levi 10:5; For the house which the Lord shall choose shall be called Jerusalem, as is contained in the book of Enoch the righteous.

Dan 5: 6; . [For I have read in the book of Enoch, the righteous, that your prince is Satan, and that all the spirits of wickedness and pride will conspire to attend constantly on the sons of Levi, to cause them to sin before the Lord.

Benjamin 9:1-5; And I believe that there will be also evil-doings among you, from the words of Enoch the righteous: that ye shall commit fornication with the fornication of Sodom, and shall perish, all save a few, and shall renew wanton deeds with women; and the kingdom of the Lord shall not be among, you, for straightway He shall take it away. 2 Nevertheless the temple of God shall be in your portion, and the last (temple) shall be more glorious than the first. And the twelve tribes shall be gathered together there, and all the Gentiles, until the Most High shall send forth His salvation in the visitation of an only 3 begotten prophet. [And He shall enter into the [first] temple, and there shall the Lord be treated with outrage, and He shall be lifted up upon 4 a tree. And the veil of the temple shall be rent, and the Spirit of God shall pass on to the Gentiles 5 as fire poured forth. And He shall ascend from Hades and shall pass from earth into heaven. And I know how lowly He shall be upon earth, and how glorious in heaven.]

Although there are more references to Enoch in the Testament of the 12 Patriarchs, this is enough to show, that while in Egypt, the Israelites read from the words of righteous Enoch, according to the oral tradition of the Hebrews who handed down these stories from generation to generation.

Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross, deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into Hades to communicate with the Gods.

Moses, who was the adopted grandson of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country, may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets.

Moses took the bread or the sacred teachings of Egypt [The land of First Born] and removed the yeast and gave to the children of Israel the regulations, rules and laws, that the Israelites were to keep for all time. --------- In one of the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. What or who, is this Azazel?

In the margins of the Good News Catholic Study Bible, Leviticus 16: concerning “Azazel” it is written by the Catholic authors of the GNB; ‘AZAZEL’ “The meaning of this Hebrew word is unknown: it may be the name of a desert demon.” ‘Azazel’ see Leviticus16: 8.

They wouldn’t have a clue; “The Stone that the builders rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.”

So...I don't see a question here. I'm guessing that means we're done and you're just doing that preaching things Christians like to do.
Have a good one.

 

[The Anointed]

So...I don't see a question here. I'm guessing that means we're done and you're just doing that preaching things Christians like to do.
Have a good one.

Yea! Bye, bye Tumah, I hope your God whispers in your ear and tells you to go and read the writings of Righteous Enoch. Perhaps you might begin to learn from where the Jewish Church originated.

 

[Tumah]

Yea! Bye, bye Tumah, I hope your God whispers in your ear and tells you to go and read the writings of Righteous Enoch. Perhaps you might begin to learn from where the Jewish Church originated.

You must have missed the post earlier in this thread where I own a Book of Enoch annotated by one of the leading Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis in Israel.

 

[The Anointed]

You must have missed the post earlier in this thread where I own a Book of Enoch annotated by one of the leading Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis in Israel.

Well good for you son. I only hope that the commentary of your Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi, is not like some of the erroneous rubbish that I have heard from other Rabbi's.

Rabbinic sources state that the First Temple stood for 410 years and, based on the 2nd-century work Seder Olam Rabbah, place construction in 832 BCE and destruction in 422 BCE, 165 years

later than secular estimates.​

The greater majority of biblical students today, accept the secular date of 587 B.C., as the correct date for the destruction of the temple and reject completely the Rabbinic dates as to the construction and destruction of the temple and yet believe the erroneous Rabbinic period for the existence of the temple, to be 410 years, thereby erroneously believing that the temple was constructed in 997 B.C..

Whereas, the Jewish historian Josephus, says that "the temple was burnt four hundred and seventy years, six months and 10 days after its construction, revealing that it was constructed in 1057 B.C.

1 Kings 6: 1; In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.

This gives us 587+ 471+480=1538 B.C., as the approximate date of the Exodus, which is around the time of the destruction of Jericho.

Whereas, according to the 2nd-century work Seder Olam Rabbah, who places the construction in 832 BCE, we have 832+480= 1312 B.C., as the date of the exodus, some 200 years after the destruction of Jericho.

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC,

 

[Neutral Name]

Sorry this is wrong. I actually own a book of Enoch with commentary by one of the major Israeli Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis. It isn't in our Bible because it doesn't qualify for it, same as all other Rabbinic books. The reason we don't spend too much time with it, is because since it wasn't considered a vital text, it wasn't preserved and so there is likely mistakes. But from a theological standpoint there's nothing wrong with it.

Similarly, your citation from sacred-texts is wrong. The prohibition is not against studying what happened before G-d created man on earth - and that's not what Gen. Rabbah says either. The author misunderstood the Midrash, only quoted half of the statement from the particular Rabbi and was unaware that the passage is actually a paraphrase of a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud. The prohibition is from before the first day of creation. In Jewish sources angels are created after the first day of creation.

Jumping to conclusions while relying on faulty translations are typical of which religion, everybody?

I have read the Book of Enoch and find it very interesting-the watchers-I think the angels but weren't there several versions? I thought that might be the problem. Which version is correct?

 

[Tumah]

Well good for you son. I only hope that the commentary of your Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi, is not like some of the erroneous rubbish that I have heard from other Rabbi's.

Rabbinic sources state that the First Temple stood for 410 years and, based on the 2nd-century work Seder Olam Rabbah, place construction in 832 BCE and destruction in 422 BCE, 165 years

later than secular estimates.​

The greater majority of biblical students today, accept the secular date of 587 B.C., as the correct date for the destruction of the temple and reject completely the Rabbinic dates as to the construction and destruction of the temple and yet believe the erroneous Rabbinic period for the existence of the temple, to be 410 years, thereby erroneously believing that the temple was constructed in 997 B.C..

Whereas, the Jewish historian Josephus, says that "the temple was burnt four hundred and seventy years, six months and 10 days after its construction, revealing that it was constructed in 1057 B.C.

1 Kings 6: 1; In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites came out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.

This gives us 587+ 471+480=1538 B.C., as the approximate date of the Exodus, which is around the time of the destruction of Jericho.

Whereas, according to the 2nd-century work Seder Olam Rabbah, who places the construction in 832 BCE, we have 832+480= 1312 B.C., as the date of the exodus, some 200 years after the destruction of Jericho.

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC,

I don't really know what you're doing here. Do you?

 

[sooda]

Hi @Firemorphic


While Jewish Enoch was extremely popular as evidenced by the number of copies found in the Qumran library - (11 copies were found, and, outside the Pentateuch, only psalms was evident in more numbers). However popular Jewish Enoch was in the various early Judaisms and their various canons, later rabbinic Judaism would have eschewed it for various reasons. For example, it would fall prey to the later rabbinic prohibition regarding questions and study surrounding the pre-creation time periods.

Deuteronomy 4:32 in Hebrew Masoretic translation reads : “For inquire now regarding the early days that preceded you, from the day when God created man on the earth and from one end of heaven to the other end of heaven:...”

The rabbinic Jews interpreted this scripture as a prohibition of inquiry regarding periods of time BEFORE God created the earth. In Gen Rabba, the rabbis teach the Jews : "IT is forbidden to inquire what existed before creation, as Moses distinctly tells us (Deut. 4. 32): 'Ask now of the days that are past which were before thee, since the day God created man upon earth.' Thus the scope of inquiry is limited to the time since the Creation.–(Gen. Rabba 1)

Such prohibitions against inquiring and learning about conditions that existed in heaven before the creation create barriers to learning many, many of the earlier doctrines concerning God; concerning his plan and his motives and conditions that allow mortality to make much more sense.

All orthodox Jews who obeyed this prohibition would have lost knowledge of and had eschewed literature describing these early doctrines. It is no wonder then that the earliest textual traditions that discuss and describe conditions before creation are relatively unknown among later Jews who inherited such prohibitions to knowledge about such themes (as well as among some of the later Christians). It is just such prohibitions to knowledge that reminds me of Jesus’ trying to teach the Jews regarding conditions leading to ignorance of God.


Jesus said : "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Luke 11:52
This same tradition existed in other Christian traditions : The Gospel of Thomas also refers to this same condemnation of Jewish leaders, saying : “Jesus said, “The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to….” THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS vs 39;

Messianic Jews themselves were aware of this systematic problem regarding prohibition of certain areas of knowledge and describe it in almost the same words : “They hold back the drink of knowledge from those that thirst, and for their thirst they give them vinegar to drink, that they might observe their error, behaving madly at their festivals and getting caught in their nets.” Dead Sea Scrolls 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q Col. 12:10-11

While Sunday School type Christians often view the collection of their modern, western, protestant “canon” as a selection of books based on a scale of “authenticity”, the actual, historical process was much more complicated. All such early literature (including the New Testament) are pseudoepigraphic to the extent that we cannot prove who wrote any of them. It was a bit of a hodge-podge of literature.

Even @sooda s' point is well taken. Initially Jewish Enoch is just that, it is "Jewish", but then as it becomes popular among the christians, they also add their commentary and text to it. Thus it becomes a syncretic document that is used among the early Christians as well.

Since it was part of the early Canon for Christians such as the writer of New Testament Jude, the O.P should say "The Uncanonized books of the MODERN, WESTERN, bible." since many of the pseudoepigraphs were considered scripture by early Christians, even into the middle ages.

In any case, i hope your journeys are good.

Clear
φιτωτωω

Enoch isn't old.. Look into WHEN is was written.

 

[sooda]

I have read the Book of Enoch and find it very interesting-the watchers-I think the angels but weren't there several versions? I thought that might be the problem. Which version is correct?

Enoch has four or five sections. It was written between 300 BC and 100 AD.

 

[sooda]

This very point itself is something I forgot to mention earlier in the thread. It is indeed absurd for Christians (especially) to pass it off as invalid when it was indeed a very popular text with the NT writers.
All three books of Enoch likewise have importance in Jewish mysticism but aren't as obvious towards Judaism as it is obvious to the NT.

It wound up in Ethiopia... where it is canon.

he five different “books” are subdivided with their approximate dates:

1. The Book of the Watchers (Chapters 1–36) 3rd century B.C.
2. The Book of Parables (37–71) 1st century B.C.
3. The Book of Heavenly Luminaries (72–82) 3rd century B.C.
4. The Book of Dream Visions (83–90) 2nd century B.C.
5. The Book of the Epistle of Enoch (91–107) 2nd century B.C.

 

[Tumah]

I recommend learning to use the reply button. It isn't hard.

1) MODERN RABBINIC JUDAISM NO LONGER USES AN ENOCH IN ITS CANON

Hi Tumah, While Jewish Enoch is not in your current library of sacred texts, it certainly was in the early library of the Jews that created and read the Jewish version and it was in the early Christian library, and still IS in the eastern library (which was my point). It also WAS in the Jewish library in Qumran and, in great numbers and was popular. When you imply “it doesn’t qualify”, what do you mean? Can I assume one reason is that the later rabbinic Jews, (e.g. your “ultra-orthodox Rabbi”) found that it did not agree with the doctrines they adopted and taught?

The Jewish book of Enoch is in my library of sacred texts. What it isn't in, is the Jewish cannon. The only texts in the Jewish Biblical cannon are those that are part of the Tanach. That means, the Book of Enoch is considered a Rabbinic text, rather than a Biblical one.

I very much agree with you that Later rabbinic Judaism eschewed the book of Enoch and rabbinic Judaism would have abandoned it partly due to its discussion of pre-earth, pre-adamanic history especially since such early Jewish histories were both present in early Judaism and they agreed with Christian and Islamic histories in specific, uncomfortable areas of doctrines.

I think you're setting up a portrayal here that isn't based on reality.

While I agree that LATER rabbinic Judaism abandoned such early histories because of the Jewish prohibition (and thus such literature would no longer “qualify”), still, the later prohibition of early Jewish traditions left the later various forms of rabbinic Judaism bereft of knowledge which would have been helpful to them and which was helpful to the early Christian religion (which inherited much of their theology from the early Jewish religions).

The thing is - and I believe I made that clear in a previous post - there is no prohibition involved here and Judaism hasn't "abandoned" the book of Enoch. We still have it and it has been quoted by Rabbis over the ages.

To the extent that the Jews excluded early data, Jesus’ specific criticism of the teachers of the Jews of his time on this point was correct. Historians will all tell you that the larger the stream of historical data, the great the accumulation of historical knowledge.

Considering the above, it's hard to take this [or you at this point] seriously.

2) TUMAHS' JUDAISM DOESN'T "SPEND MUCH TIME WITH" THE BOOK OF ENOCH AND THE BOOK LIKELY HAS MISTAKES IN IT

I agree that Enoch is not considered vital by modern, rabbinic Judaism and that this rabbinic religion does not "spend much time" with Enoch. I am not speaking of the later rabbinic Judaism, but rather I was speaking of early Judaism that did use the Book of Enoch. We are speaking of two different religions. I very much agree with you that the book of Enoch has mistakes in it. ALL old manuscripts of any particular size have mistakes. The Massoretes give us entire LISTS of mistakes they noticed in creating the Jewish Masoretic bible. However, the fact that there are many mistakes in the Jewish bible, does not prevent us from using it.

Similar to ben Sirach, Enoch isn't considered a vital text in any form of Judaism. It is an interesting text, that's true. It is a Jewish text, that is also true. But it isn't a text vital to Judaism. It's possible to live a completely Jewish life without having ever opened the book.

3) THE MULTIPLE RABBINIC PROHIBITIONS AGAINST INQUIRIES INTO AND STUDY OF PRE-CREATION TEXTUAL TRADITIONS

The citation is correct but it IS incomplete and doesn’t tell us more of what Rabbi Yonah wrote (who is rendering this opinion in the name of Rabbi Levi).

The citation is correct in that in contains most of the words that Midrash Rabbah uses. But it is incorrect in the way it portrays the recording as a stand alone passage, when its in fact a paraphrase of a discussion that takes place in the Jerusalem Talmud (which you have incorrectly understood as your understanding is based solely on the passage in the Midrash Rabbah). It's also incorrect in that it leads one to think that the Rabbi is saying something different than what he actually is saying.

Your previous citation was not of the opinion of Rabbi Yonah in the name Rabbi Levi, but of bar Kappara. You are either confusing the opinions, or changing your own.

The larger quote from Jewish Mishna is : ...

The rabbinic justification that one is not allowed to inquire about pre-adamic history “because” the hebrew letter “beit” is open in the “forward” direction is irrational and illogical, thus it is suspected that an entirely different reason for Rabbis to prohibit inquiry and study must be assumed. Also, whether the prohibition prohibited rabbinic Jews from inquires into what happened before Creation of the earth or creation of Adam, each of the two prohibitions still has the exact same effect that I mentioned. Later rabbinic Judaism would have lost all such knowledge and traditions within a single generation.

While Rabbi Yonah offers this prohibition as meaning “since God created humanity”,

Judging by your repeated assertion as to the nature of the prohibition, I'm guessing that there's an agenda here that requires you to believe that Judaism takes this particular stance, despite my proof to the contrary. So I'm really just posting this for others.

This is not a Mishnah, but a quote from Midrash Rabbah. The point made there is not why may one not inquire about pre-Adamic history. It is permissible to inquire about pre-Adamic history. The passage begins by asking

Why was the world created with [the letter] beth?​

The question refers to the first letter of the Book of Genesis, Berei****h. It is essentially asking, what lesson may we derive from G-d's choosing to begin the Torah with the letter beth over any other letter?

From there, Rabbi Yonah explains, that it is to teach us that we may not inquire as to what happened before the Creation. Not before Adam, but what happened before the word Berei****h.

this is not the only context for prohibition of inquiry. For example, there are other, similar prohibitions.

For example : Another prohibition regarding creation itself, or the explanation of the prohibition concerning inquiry is given by R Chaina in the Mishna.

Rabbi Yossi Bar Chaina explains that the reason one is not to inquire about the creation of the world itself, is because it was made from Chaotic material that he compares to a “trash dump” (sewers, dunghills, and garbage” are his words). And it was seen as “disrespectful” such that no one is to remind this King about what sort of "degrading" place his palace was built upon. To do so, would both “discredit” the creation and it would dishonor the king who built it. The quote I am speaking of from Jewish Mishna is as follows :

The quote you are citing is again not from the Jewish Mishnah, but from the Jewish Midrash Rabbah.

What Rabbi Yosi bar Chaninah is of the opinion is that it's not respectful to speak about the world having come from tohu. He isn't speaking about the creation in general, just that particular aspect. The opinion cited directly before this one, is Rav who is of the opinion that one may not speak about the creation in order to gain honor.

No one is of the opinion that it's forbidden to inquire into the creation in general, because that would be contradicting a[n actual] Mishnah which states:

One may not expound the act of Creation and the secrets of the beginning of the world before two or more individuals;​

The implication obviously that it is permitted to do so in front of one individual. And in fact - despite your assertion - there are plenty of Jewish texts that delve into the creation.

I really don't know how you expect me to take you as anything other than a joke. Even the book your quoting from (Midrash, not Mishnah) expounds on the creation. The fact that you're unable or unwilling to accept this is really odd.

4) THEORIES REGARDING THE REAL REASON RABBINIC JUDAISM PROHIBITED INQUIRY INTO AND STUDY OF EARLY JEWISH PRE-CREATION TEXTUAL TRADITIONS

The Rabbinic justification given for this first prohibition against study of pre-adamic creation and inquiry is Irrational and illogical. It is quite silly to suggest that the shape of the letter “beit” is open on the front and not the back, and therefore the Jews cannot look backwards (beyond creation). The fact that this justification is so bizzare suggests that there is another real reason the rabbis did not want the Jews to inquire into this knowledge.

One better theory is that the rabbis of rabbinic Judaism created this rule in the post exilic period for a safeguard against Idolotry. Some Jews saw the Babylonian exile as a punishment (partly) because Israel had worshiped other Gods. The early Jewish texts speak of other beings who were glorified and powerful and directed by God in the processes of creation. Such early texts were quite consistent with the Christian claim regarding Jesus as the Messiah. It makes sense for post exilic rabbis to attempt to stamp out any possibility of worship they deemed inappropriate by prohibiting inquiries into the such early Jewish histories.

IF this was the actual reason for a rabbinic prohibition of such inquiry and study, then I think the Rabbis thought they were doing the “right thing” by prohibiting knowledge of such things. However, in this case, any benefit of a prohibition of study of early Jewish traditions did not outweigh the harm of ignorance of and loss of early Jewish traditions.

Of course the various Judaisms did not agree on doctrines and the early Jewish textual traditions were different than the later rabbinic Judaism. This also would be a powerful motive for rabbinic Judaism to prohibit study of conflicting doctrines.

Does your modern Jewish religion have another reason to prohibit the study of and inquiry into what happened before creation?

Your theories are unfounded because they are based on mistaken assumptions and understandings about what is prohibited in Judaism, as explained above [twice].

5) JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS REGARDING SCHOLARS JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS

I do not think Christian religious historians are “jumping to conclusions”. I think the reasoning for these tentative theories are founded on fairly good evidence. Having said this, most historical theories are tentative and subject to improvement as data improves. I think the current base data pushes us in this direction of how and why Jewish religion evolved and changed from its earlier forms into its later various forms.


I hope this added data is helpful Tumah

Clear
φιακνεω

It is helpful in giving me the measure of the Christian scholar. Your data is faulty. Both in quality and quantity on this subject. As Christians are wont to do, you have chosen particular passages that you believe prove your opinion, but only because you've ignored all the other passages and texts that strongly disprove your position. So yes, I do think Christian religious historians are jumping to conclusions.