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The truth behind ancient beliefs...

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
It seems to me that the further back in history one goes as far as beliefs, the less they become "religious" and "supernatural" and the more they become "realistic". Animism, Panentheism, and Shamanism all represent aspects of some of the earliest beliefs that were present as far back as hunter-gatherer, cave-dwelling times. Most early beliefs contain at least some similar elements to these. All seem to make more sense to me than the other faiths such as Christianity. In Animism, it is believed that all things have "spirit" and are "animated". When you look at it from a scientific perspective, this is very true. All things are comprised of energy that is constantly moving and changing form. All things have this energy and even a stone has "vibrational" energy. Scientists just prefer not to call it "spirit energy". They have not scientifically "proven" it yet, but I think that most realize something more to "discover" is always out there as well. Of course the ancient peoples did not know what energy or bacteria, or viruses were, but they understood that "something" was there and that whatever it was affected everything that existed. Even the plants and the animals, and the sun and the moon had their own "energy" or "medicine" about them. The old beliefs seem natural and realistic. I would rather believe in the natural existing energies, spirit or otherwise, of all things, than in some fear driven "God" that lives beyond the pearly gates of "heaven" and looks kinda like Santa Claus. Oddly enough, that christian "God" of love and mercy killed and destroyed more people and creatures than His "adversary" the "Devil" did! I would rather worship trees. At least a tree won't try to kill me, I don't think.:D
Don't the old beliefs just make more sense? Please don't take this personally, I believe that all things have at least some truth to offer. This is just my opinion. I would like to hear yours......


Opinions anyone?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Interesting subject matter. And one of those that shows how different religion and belief in God are, I think.

It seems to me that the further back in history one goes as far as beliefs, the less they become "religious" and "supernatural" and the more they become "realistic". Animism, Panentheism, and Shamanism all represent aspects of some of the earliest beliefs that were present as far back as hunter-gatherer, cave-dwelling times. Most early beliefs contain at least some similar elements to these. All seem to make more sense to me than the other faiths such as Christianity.

I basically agree. Early on, religion was more concrete, more aimed towards immediate goals and decisions. And, quite frankly, far less interested in endless theological controversy with little practical relevancy.

On the other hand, concrete decisions often end up being more divisive and controversial than ethereal goals that are usually postponed to some speculative future date. For that reason, Abrahamic faiths (and arguably some other major religions) have better political influence than paganism ever had. I would even say that the transition from paganism to Abrahamic faiths is intrinsically tied to the desire of a bigger, more influent community; paganism is best suited to a way of life where, so to speak, everyone knows each other by name. It subtly emphasizes individual interpretation and oral tradition in a way that makes more sense on an individual level and is in many ways more meaningful, but in so doing it lets go of most conditions that might allow for building a bigger empire.

Abrahamic faiths, by contrast, all encourage the individual to forget about his individual goals to a degree and instead dedicate himself to a greater cause of some sort: Judaism presents itself as the faith of the people chosen by God, Christianity was born among the Roman Empire as a promise of a far greater, Heavenly kingdom, Islam is even in name the submission to God's will. Even the Bahai Faith prides itself on being organized in a global level and present in all continents.

There are, of course, various arguments both in favor and against both approaches. Just as naturally, different people show different degrees of afinity and compability with either. In a very broad stroke, earth-based religion is about learning about the world to negotiate one's way through it, while faith-based religion is about dreaming with a better world to shape one's path to it.

In some sense this distinction resembles and is related to the one between LHP and RHP religions, recent as that concept is. It is a basic choice between being a person who earns its place in the world by learning how the world works and going through the demanded rituals of acceptance and pertinence and being a person who would rather serve a greater cause than rule its own being and its own worldview, albeit in a localized scale.

This clash of religious goals happened with Eastern faiths in a slightly different way, as well, although apparently in a somewhat less decisive way, perhaps because the association between faith and government was somewhat less emphasized there. Or perhaps because eastern faiths, even Hinduism, never really adopted the belief in a central God with anything resembling the impressive (and perhaps questionable) emphasys that the Abrahamic faiths did choose. While some people associate religious faith with belief in God, going so far as to retroactively interpret animistic spirits and other spiritual entities as either some sort of gods or its "enemies", there is in reality very little relation between religion and belief in God. Not too many faiths actually have a concept of God comparable to Abraham's, and quite frankly, it often seems that even in the Abrahamic faiths it is very much a challenge for many followers to actually believe in God.

In Animism, it is believed that all things have "spirit" and are "animated". When you look at it from a scientific perspective, this is very true. All things are comprised of energy that is constantly moving and changing form. All things have this energy and even a stone has "vibrational" energy. Scientists just prefer not to call it "spirit energy". They have not scientifically "proven" it yet, but I think that most realize something more to "discover" is always out there as well.

I would rather say that animism built a provisional substitute for scientific knowledge, myself. When one undestands science's goals and method it all comes together. Religion is not really about obtaining scientific knowledge, but it does sometimes offer more applicable advice because it (at least originally) emphasized actual answers to concrete decisions, which science simply isn't about.

Of course the ancient peoples did not know what energy or bacteria, or viruses were, but they understood that "something" was there and that whatever it was affected everything that existed. Even the plants and the animals, and the sun and the moon had their own "energy" or "medicine" about them. The old beliefs seem natural and realistic. I would rather believe in the natural existing energies, spirit or otherwise, of all things, than in some fear driven "God" that lives beyond the pearly gates of "heaven" and looks kinda like Santa Claus. Oddly enough, that christian "God" of love and mercy killed and destroyed more people and creatures than His "adversary" the "Devil" did! I would rather worship trees. At least a tree won't try to kill me, I don't think.:D
Don't the old beliefs just make more sense? Please don't take this personally, I believe that all things have at least some truth to offer. This is just my opinion. I would like to hear yours......


Opinions anyone?

It seems to me that in a very general sense you're making an appeal to the "personal journey" model of religious practice, where one learns about it's own skills, personal tastes and innermost goals and values and goes on from there. There is much to be said about the wisdom of knowing who you are and who you really want to eventually be before dedicating yourself to a Higher Cause of some sort.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
In Animism, it is believed that all things have "spirit" and are "animated". When you look at it from a scientific perspective, this is very true. All things are comprised of energy that is constantly moving and changing form. All things have this energy and even a stone has "vibrational" energy. Scientists just prefer not to call it "spirit energy".
Does energy not have spirit too?
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
This is a romantic theory. in reality the early animists and shamans were superstitious people. religion has developed alot in the millennia to follow. early people before the agriculture transsision, had a basic 'religion', it was not some kind of a concept of spiritual oneness that they may have perceived and that we might like to think they did, but the superstitious thought of seeing spirits everywhere, life must have been very frightening.
neo shamanism is a new age belief, where shamanism is painted in an ideal, so called progressive way.
the neo pagan beliefs in general are reconstructed religions, they have little similarities to their ancient inspirations. they are painted by the Romanticism (and spiritualism) of the 19th century.
 
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Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Does energy not have spirit too?

That is true. I believe that energy is ALL things, including spirit. Spirit is that which "animates" things, therefore anything that has energy has spirit. Ghosts to me are just other forms of energy which scientists haven't studied enough to really know anything about. I believe "thought" is transformational energy. When we think something, it causes a chemical reaction in our brains which signals us to do things. Everything is energy in a constant state of transformation. It can not be destroyed, so our thoughts and emotions, and spirit energy either take physical form or non-physical form. When in the physical form, our bodies change just like all energy does. When in the non-physical form, our energies or "spirits" are in transformational mode waiting for the next physical manifestation of our energy. We reincarnate. In a sense ALL energy naturally reincarnates itself because it can neither be created or destroyed, only change form. That proves that reincarnation is true in my mind. To me, it just all makes perfect sense. When I look at things from this perspective, there really is no questions that I have left to be answered. That is the problem I encountered with going either the strictly scientific or strictly religious route. Both left too many unanswered questions. I believe that in bringing all the pieces of the puzzle together instead of dividing them up, we see the whole picture, not just part of it. But that's just my opinion.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Energy is by definition anything with demonstrable existence (that is, that has discernible effects) that is not matter (lacking mass and/or volume). Speculative energy may be pretty much anything, if it does exist at all.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Energy is by definition anything with demonstrable existence (that is, that has discernible effects) that is not matter (lacking mass and/or volume). Speculative energy may be pretty much anything, if it does exist at all.

There are many people who believe that spirits and ghosts have demonstrable existence. I believe that if there is even any truth behind spirits or ghosts actually "existing" what else would it be other than another form of energy? I don't believe in the "supernatural". If it DOES exist, then it is natural for it to exist. There was a time when people thought illnesses were "evil spirits". They could not prove it in any way, but they knew that "something" was there regardless of what they called it. And they were absolutely right. Something WAS there. I believe that "something" more is out there, scientists just haven't been able to "prove" it yet. Perhaps one day in the future, some scientists WILL be able to "prove" it and it will be the next greatest scientific "discovery" of mankind. There is always possibilities.
 
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Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
I find that organized religion these days is too much like politics. I hate politics and I think the search for "truth" or "God" IS a personal journey one has to make. Everything is just so laid out in front of us like we don't have to actually explore and learn for ourselves. Where is the individuality? The bible holds many truths in it, but it is all too easy. It is like a "Ready to Serve" instruction manual for "God". That's why so many people follow Christianity I think. It's just so easy. Just go to church every Sunday, say you're prayers, and all is forgiven and you're guaranteed a spot in "heaven". But that is so much like the modern world, everyone wants a quick fix. It's like fast food for you're soul. Perhaps people these days are just so busy with bills and taxes, and cars and all the riff raff of modern day living to spend time finding answers on their own.
 
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Darkwater

Well-Known Member
Resonate Reeeeeaaallllllll lowwwwwwww to speak with tree spirit,the resident elf.

Eeeevvvvveeeeennnnnn Lowwwwwwwwwerrrrrr for stone.

All is energy,as you say.

You should get into Politics Runewolf,make sure the American Indian Clans keep together as the one nation,as prophesised by a certain gentleman a couple of hundred years ago.Ahem.Everything is resonation/energy.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Resonate Reeeeeaaallllllll lowwwwwwww to speak with tree spirit,the resident elf.

Eeeevvvvveeeeennnnnn Lowwwwwwwwwerrrrrr for stone.

All is energy,as you say.

You should get into Politics Runewolf,make sure the American Indian Clans keep together as the one nation,as prophesised by a certain gentleman a couple of hundred years ago.Ahem.Everything is resonation/energy.



That would be a worthy endeavor for sure. Have to say though that I am not Native American....perhaps a couple hundred years ago in a past life.:D That would be where I picked up my wolf spirit companion. My wolf is 160 years old from what I have been told, follows me around everywhere I go. Have always had great admiration for the old ways, but I never liked politics. Too much like organized religion.
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that the further back in history one goes as far as beliefs, the less they become "religious" and "supernatural" and the more they become "realistic". Animism, Panentheism, and Shamanism all represent aspects of some of the earliest beliefs that were present as far back as hunter-gatherer, cave-dwelling times. Most early beliefs contain at least some similar elements to these.

Yeah, primitive cultures all seem to emphasize direct experience over theoretical. I especially like the work of Terrance McKenna in his book "Food of the Gods", where he links the biblical "manna from heaven" to psychedelic mushrooms.


All seem to make more sense to me than the other faiths such as Christianity. In Animism, it is believed that all things have "spirit" and are "animated". When you look at it from a scientific perspective, this is very true. All things are comprised of energy that is constantly moving and changing form. All things have this energy and even a stone has "vibrational" energy. Scientists just prefer not to call it "spirit energy". They have not scientifically "proven" it yet, but I think that most realize something more to "discover" is always out there as well.

Many scientists have their own religion, which is called "reductionism", where they refuse to believe anything spiritual, even when it defies experience. As an example, I was just watching a show on OBE's and NDE's on the National Geographic channel, an expert neuroscientist had done experiments which he claimed proved that the NDE was a result of oxygen deprivation, that as the visual cortex is stimulated the person sees a "light" and so forth. Then, as blood returns, the person will have dreamlike experiences, reliving their life's memories, and it will seem like their life passes before their eyes, and so forth. The problem is, looking at his actual data, virtually none of his assertions concerning NDE's are supported from his research. When confronted with the experience of a patient who reported seeing things while under anaesthesia (while his eyes were taped shut and his face was covered), which turned out to be accurate details about his bypass surgery, Dr. Hovda had no answer. He feebly offered someday science will be able to explain that away. I think this is a wonderful example of faith in the irrational, even in the face of immediate experience to the contrary! At least he can believe in something!

Of course the ancient peoples did not know what energy or bacteria, or viruses were, but they understood that "something" was there and that whatever it was affected everything that existed. Even the plants and the animals, and the sun and the moon had their own "energy" or "medicine" about them. The old beliefs seem natural and realistic. I would rather believe in the natural existing energies, spirit or otherwise, of all things, than in some fear driven "God" that lives beyond the pearly gates of "heaven" and looks kinda like Santa Claus. Oddly enough, that christian "God" of love and mercy killed and destroyed more people and creatures than His "adversary" the "Devil" did! I would rather worship trees. At least a tree won't try to kill me, I don't think.:D

True, but then you've gotta realize, that this brute religion worshipping the god of abraham is very distrustful of anything not sanctioned in their "book". its a very literal religion, no room for interpretation. Or if you interpret it, it has to be according to the offical view. It has destroyed everything around it, and assimilated everything else into it. So, yes it may be despiciable, but it is also a lesson in darwinism in action. There are advantages to having a literal religious belief, as it simplifies thought. It enables people to join together in an extremely large, socially cohesive unit.

Animism doesnt lend itself to this kind of large scale social cohesion. So whereas it may seem that the more immediately applicable/practical religion would be more useful, the fact is that people in general are easily swayed by opinion moreso than their own experiences. Its more important to be accepted by the social system they belong to, and this will tend to override even the most profound spiritual insight. People who have a powerful mystical experience will even try to retro-cognize the experience in terms of the religion they were taught as a child.



Don't the old beliefs just make more sense? Please don't take this personally, I believe that all things have at least some truth to offer. This is just my opinion. I would like to hear yours......


Opinions anyone?

Of course I think so, but then my brain has been funkified. The shaman's path isnt for everyone, although if everyone were to have the experience....wow, think of how much less war and hatred there would be! If everyone had their own intimate connection to the divine. But then....that was Jesus' idea. See how that turned out? He told people to abandon their reliance on an offical priesthood and develop their own attachment to God, and guess what? People built an offical religion based on him!

Guess you can't win! :angel2:
 

Darkwater

Well-Known Member
Your hatred of politics/politicians sits verrry nicely with the 160 (168(?) ) year old wolf spirit guide.ahem.
 
Even the plants and the animals, and the sun and the moon had their own "energy" or "medicine" about them.
An energy being a part of God would have to be like God. God is eternal and is sovereign over everything. This means that plants and animals would have to carry eternity within them. Everything apart of God is like God. Evil would have to have absolute control as good does. They would not oppose each other but complete each other. They do not, because evil is never a good thing.
 
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