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The Truth About Morality

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
Then that is not the truth about morality. That is your truth.
I can't disagree with that assessment, nor would i want to. That is my stance as an individual. Truth about morality is in the self determination of what is and what isn't right for us as individuals. I try to avoid viewing moral values as something to be applied to everyone, given the unique nature of life and the array of circumstances we find ourselves in. I can be stubborn in this respect, particularly when it comes to being force fed a moral dictate.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I can't disagree with that assessment, nor would i want to. That is my stance as an individual. Truth about morality is in the self determination of what is and what isn't right for us as individuals. I try to avoid viewing moral values as something to be applied to everyone, given the unique nature of life and the array of circumstances we find ourselves in. I can be stubborn in this respect, particularly when it comes to being force fed a moral dictate.

Yeah, but you run into the following problem that you deal with other humans that you and in the end your good may cause bad in them.

Morality for me is to account for other people even if different than me. But that is not the truth, that is my truth. So yes, the truth seems to be it is individual, but that I am not the only individual. Go figure. :D
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Typically, parents reward their children for certain types of behavior and punish or get angry at them for other types of behavior. Kids are quick to learn the difference, which is why we learn to lie. It's a defense mechanism we are born with. It doesn't matter what the child understands of what others believe. They understand that they get in trouble for some things they apparently enjoy and that's the gist. There are disagreements in what is and what isn't acceptable behavior between child and parental influence. This ends up being a lifelong reality as we venture beyond our homes and become more social with others, who like our parents, sometimes disagree with some things we choose in life.
I think it does matter as to the child not understanding as to what others believe (for very young children), and where they often show the evidence of their lying (chocolate on face - no I didn't eat it), but don't recognise that an adult can know this. Mind you, I haven't been a father or interacted with very young children - apart from the occasional times with some friends and their children. They do seem easily led when quite young.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Telling the truth and an honest spirit is a learned behavior and we are typically required to make great effort to do this. The resistance can be unrelenting based on approval of our personal truth's.
That is interesting that you say this. It requires no effort on my part to tell the truth, it comes naturally. However, it would not come naturally for me to lie and I don't even know if I could do it. If I even I think about telling a lie I catch myself because I immediately feel shame and guilt. I don't know if I learned this growing up but I cannot ever remember being any different. After I became a Baha'i, my religious beliefs further confirmed what I already believed.

“Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired. “– Abdu’l-Baha, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 22.​
“Consider that the worst of qualities and most odious of attributes, which is the foundation of all evil, is lying. No worse or more blameworthy quality than this can be imagined to exist; it is the destroyer of all human perfections, and the cause of innumerable vices. There is no worse characteristic than this; it is the foundation of all evils.” Abdu’l-Baha, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 321

Why would a person need to lie? A person would only need to lie if they did something wrong and they were caught or if they were trying to get something for themselves by lying. For example, I have been lied to constantly by con men on dating sites pretending to be who they are not. There is nothing more odious than this! Because of this I have become disillusioned about men and it is very difficult for me to trust any man is who he claims to be. On the other hand, this type of lying behavior make truthful men stand out when I do encounter them.
If we're not honest about ourselves with others, we'll never be where we need to be as individuals. That's the truth about morality. Your morals don't always reflect my own.
That is also what I believe about morality. I believe that truthfulness is the foundation of all other virtues.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And that is the truth for all humans for all morality based on how you believe. That is so telling on how you think. ;)
I said that is also what I believe about morality.
I did not say that is the truth for all humans for all morality based on how you believe.

I believe that truthfulness is the foundation of all other virtues.
I guess I need to edit my post. ;)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I said that is also what I believe about morality.
I did not say that is the truth for all humans for all morality based on how you believe.

I believe that truthfulness is the foundation of all other virtues.
I guess I need to edit my post. ;)

Yeah, but that is not the truth about morality. That is your truth. That is point with all the debates about God. It is your truth and not mine. That is it.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Not so sure we are born with it, given children seemingly learn to lie - as to the benefits of doing so - and from age two or about:


But best not to I've usually found - not unless one has a really, really good memory as to all lies told. :eek:
My dogs lied often.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Not so sure we are born with it, given children seemingly learn to lie - as to the benefits of doing so - and from age two or about:


But best not to I've usually found - not unless one has a really, really good memory as to all lies told. :eek:

There's an old saying.... "The two most honest people in the world are.... drunk people and little kids".
 
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Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
That is interesting that you say this. It requires no effort on my part to tell the truth, it comes naturally. However, it would not come naturally for me to lie and I don't even know if I could do it. If I even I think about telling a lie I catch myself because I immediately feel shame and guilt. I don't know if I learned this growing up but I cannot ever remember being any different. After I became a Baha'i, my religious beliefs further confirmed what I already believed.

“Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. Without truthfulness progress and success, in all the worlds of God, are impossible for any soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also be acquired. “– Abdu’l-Baha, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 22.​
“Consider that the worst of qualities and most odious of attributes, which is the foundation of all evil, is lying. No worse or more blameworthy quality than this can be imagined to exist; it is the destroyer of all human perfections, and the cause of innumerable vices. There is no worse characteristic than this; it is the foundation of all evils.” Abdu’l-Baha, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 321

Why would a person need to lie? A person would only need to lie if they did something wrong and they were caught or if they were trying to get something for themselves by lying. For example, I have been lied to constantly by con men on dating sites pretending to be who they are not. There is nothing more odious than this! Because of this I have become disillusioned about men and it is very difficult for me to trust any man is who he claims to be. On the other hand, this type of lying behavior make truthful men stand out when I do encounter them.

That is also what I believe about morality. I believe that truthfulness is the foundation of all other virtues.

It does come natural. At least until you face unwarranted criticism and resistance over how you are and over the things that come natural to you. It's not about doing something wrong, but rather it's about doing things that others view to be wrong, or immoral, and sometimes people make others feel guilt for the act of giving to those who need, particularly when you have your own needs that are not always being met. So, with that said, it can be difficult to acquire a taste for truthfulness, and even more so difficult to maintain an honest spirit. Personal tastes are not always met with open arms. I enjoy a glass of wine on occasion. For some, a single glass of wine at home is viewed with no less ridicule than driving 100 mph to buy a bottle of bourbon after guzzling a 5th of Jim Beam, even if there is no dependency issues attached to alcohol. Even so, I manage to still be honest.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It does come natural. At least until you face unwarranted criticism and resistance over how you are and over the things that come natural to you. It's not about doing something wrong, but rather it's about doing things that others view to be wrong, or immoral, and sometimes people make others feel guilt for the act of giving to those who need, particularly when you have your own needs that are not always being met. So, with that said, it can be difficult to acquire a taste for truthfulness, and even more so difficult to maintain an honest spirit. Personal tastes are not always met with open arms. I enjoy a glass of wine on occasion. For some, a single glass of wine at home is viewed with no less ridicule than driving 100 mph to buy a bottle of bourbon after guzzling a 5th of Jim Beam, even if there is no dependency issues attached to alcohol. Even so, I manage to still be honest.
It can be difficult to be honest when other people are trying to coax you into being less than honest. For example, I have a tenant who is now two months behind on his rent and other people think I should threaten to evict him but I do not plan to evict him so it would be dishonest of me to threaten that. I don't know what I am going to do if he doesn't pay the rent soon, but I am not going to lie to him. I will just tell him the truth about what I plan to do, when I figure that out. One reason I let it go this long is because he has lived in the house for over 10 years and he has been much, much further behind on the rent in the past but I eventually got the rent money.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
It's not about doing something wrong, but rather it's about doing things that others view to be wrong, or immoral,
One act of telling the truth has a bad rep in society: "snitching".
When it comes in the form of "treason", it is even illegal. Ask Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden and Julian Assange. They are persecuted for telling the truth. Every whistleblower faces financial loss (being fired) and potentially prosecution (revealing "business secrets" - even when that secret was criminal activity).
When a business model works on lies or simply misinformation/lack of information, telling the truth is "anti capitalist" - and we can't have that.
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
One act of telling the truth has a bad rep in society: "snitching".
When it comes in the form of "treason", it is even illegal. Ask Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden and Julian Assange. They are persecuted for telling the truth. Every whistleblower faces financial loss (being fired) and potentially prosecution (revealing "business secrets" - even when that secret was criminal activity).
When a business model works on lies or simply misinformation/lack of information, telling the truth is "anti capitalist" - and we can't have that.
Good point - It is sometimes about keeping others out of the penal systems. Either way, lies are born out of fears.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Honestly, I think that outspokenness is the capability of always telling the truth about themselves and others.

In my cultural background...it's seen as a virtue. A quality.

On the contrary, those who are too phony, never tell the truth about what they are really like on the inside.
Pirandello used to say that people need to wear masks to survive in a society.
But it was the early Twentieth century.

Society has changed. We need to be spontaneous and true. Lies can be useful, for a while, then our life becomes phony and inauthentic.
;)
 
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