The Truth About Morality

[Balthazzar]

Truth appeals to me. I can't say this has always been the case, but I've learned to embrace things that are true. It's a scientific fact that humans are natural born liars. I think it's about acceptance or fear of not being accepted by those we depend on as children. We typically don't want those we care about and rely on to be disappointed in us, so we learn about the saving graces of telling lies ... or rather we often think in those terms while young. Telling the truth and an honest spirit is a learned behavior and we are typically required to make great effort to do this. The resistance can be unrelenting based on approval of our personal truth's. As an individual, my personal truth differs from everyone else. My moral compass must be based on my personal truths as an individual. There is always some disagreement about moral integrity and individual truths and the choices we make as individuals.

The way I see it, is if I lie I'll be hard pressed to have my needs met. It's similar to knowing a woman is looking for long a term relationship and possible marriage, and knowing you're not that type of person and you still pursue relations with that woman. You not only screw yourself out of being viewed as a trust-worthy person, but you also screw the woman out of her time and very likely damage her ability to trust others. If we're not honest about ourselves with others, we'll never be where we need to be as individuals. That's the truth about morality. Your morals don't always reflect my own.

 

[kadzbiz]

Lying is a protective device. It's been shown that young liars become more successful than those that tell the truth.

 

[SalixIncendium]

As I see it, there is a correlation between lying and attachment/desire to world. Once one sheds these attachments and desires, lying seems rather pointless.

 

[Nakosis]

Truth appeals to me. I can't say this has always been the case, but I've learned to embrace things that are true. It's a scientific fact that humans are natural born liars. I think it's about acceptance or fear of not being accepted by those we depend on as children. We typically don't want those we care about and rely on to be disappointed in us, so we learn about the saving graces of telling lies ... or rather we often think in those terms while young. Telling the truth and an honest spirit is a learned behavior and we are typically required to make great effort to do this. The resistance can be unrelenting based on approval of our personal truth's. As an individual, my personal truth differs from everyone else. My moral compass must be based on my personal truths as an individual. There is always some disagreement about moral integrity and individual truths and the choices we make as individuals.

The way I see it, is if I lie I'll be hard pressed to have my needs met. It's similar to knowing a woman is looking for long a term relationship and possible marriage, and knowing you're not that type of person and you still pursue relations with that woman. You not only screw yourself out of being viewed as a trust-worthy person, but you also screw the woman out of her time and very likely damage her ability to trust others. If we're not honest about ourselves with others, we'll never be where we need to be as individuals. That's the truth about morality. Your morals don't always reflect my own.

IMO there are times to lie and there are times not to lie. There is nothing immoral about lying when the time is right to lie. So nothing to feel guilty about. Of course our morals are different so when I see it as ok to lie, you may see it as immoral.

Personal truths, I see more as my personal ideas of what is right and what is wrong. Calling them truths is a little more conviction than I what to give to my beliefs.

 

[Heyo]

Lying is a protective device. It's been shown that young liars become more successful than those that tell the truth.

One would expect that liars will be shunned or at least not be taken serious (the boy who cried wolf) but the reality is that some people will fall for the same lie over and over, sometimes even by the same liar. Valuing truth is not only refraining from lying but also to not let others lie unpunished.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Not so sure we are born with it, given children seemingly learn to lie - as to the benefits of doing so - and from age two or about:

When Does Lying Begin?

How early do we learn to lie? And what purpose does it serve in young children?

www.psychologytoday.com

But best not to I've usually found - not unless one has a really, really good memory as to all lies told.

 

[Balthazzar]

IMO there are times to lie and there are times not to lie. There is nothing immoral about lying when the time is right to lie. So nothing to feel guilty about. Of course our morals are different so when I see it as ok to lie, you may see it as immoral.

Personal truths, I see more as my personal ideas of what is right and what is wrong. Calling them truths is a little more conviction than I what to give to my beliefs.

I prefer truths but I have lied quite a bit in my past. An honest spirit helps keep me honest after all, and when it comes to others I tend to mind my own business. I suppose there would be times when compelled to get involved, but these times would not involve lying about them, nor myself ... if I could help it. Self preservation and avoidance tend to trump honesty at times, given the way our systems inflict penalties. Being truthful helps keep me honest and also lets others know where I'm coming from without being veiled in deceit. My personal preferences are truths, so that's what I call them and I utilize this as a guide in life. Why lie? We end up cheating ourselves.

 

[Balthazzar]

Not so sure we are born with it, given children seemingly learn to lie - as to the benefits of doing so - and from age two or about:

When Does Lying Begin?

How early do we learn to lie? And what purpose does it serve in young children?

www.psychologytoday.com

But best not to I've usually found - not unless one has a really, really good memory as to all lies told.

Which do you think we learn first? Do we learn to lie or do we learn to tell the truth or both? If both, we are born this way and with these traits. Which one gets played more I guess depends on the person and conditions they are being subjected to. Btw, babies have shown signs of lying by 6 month's of age, or so I've read ... somewhere. Don't hold me to that .... I can't remember the reference.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Which do you think we learn first? Do we learn to lie or do we learn to tell the truth or both? If both, we are born this way and with these traits. Which one gets played more I guess depends on the person and conditions they are being subjected to. Btw, babies have shown signs of lying by 6 month's of age, or so I've read ... somewhere. Don't hold me to that .... I can't remember the reference.

I suppose it is is more down to their mental development, and appreciating that they do have autonomy, but lying still seems something that develops rather than being inbuilt and which most children go through - until they learn the benefits of not lying too.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I suppose it is is more down to their mental development, and appreciating that they do have autonomy, but lying still seems something that develops rather than being inbuilt and which most children go through - until they learn the benefits of not lying too.

It seems to be both.

 

[PureX]

I think most people try to be honest most of the time mostly because they don;t want to be lied to, so they refrain from lying to others.

Where we really fall short is in lying to ourselves, and then to others as a result. The damage we can do under those circumstances is enormous. (George Bush deciding to invade Iraq based on lies that he told himself.)

 

[Balthazzar]

I suppose it is is more down to their mental development, and appreciating that they do have autonomy, but lying still seems something that develops rather than being inbuilt and which most children go through - until they learn the benefits of not lying too.

The defense mechanisms behind lying might suggest otherwise, but I see your point. I think we defend ourselves quite naturally and lying or learning to lie seems an effective method of doing so. It's to be expected - It's a survival technique we've developed and I'm sure through our evolutionary processes and adaptative realities and likely over our many human generations, if not prior to the first our ancestors.

 

[Balthazzar]

I think most people try to be honest most of the time mostly because they don;t want to be lied to, so they refrain from lying to others.

Where we really fall short is in lying to ourselves, and then to others as a result. The damage we can do under those circumstances is enormous. (George Bush deciding to invade Iraq based on lies that he told himself.)

It would help if our societies didn't encourage us to lie. On the surface lying is shunned, but underneath is an entirely different playing field. Understanding people can be considered a rarity in life, and building our communities up in truth still a somewhat far reaching goal if a goal at all.

 

[osgart]

No one tells the truth without considering the truth one deserves to hear. Concealing truth is as important as telling the truth someone deserves to hear. Lying is with intention to harm in my book, or to create false impressions for gain. I think telling falsehoods for whatever reason is living under deceit. The only place worthy of telling falsehoods is to defend lives and things worthy. Otherwise I don't see the point. Telling falsehoods seems rather commonplace; Half truths as well. Self deception is an awful way to live. Deceiving people is just as bad.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The defense mechanisms behind lying might suggest otherwise, but I see your point. I think we defend ourselves quite naturally and lying or learning to lie seems an effective method of doing so. It's to be expected - It's a survival technique we've developed and I'm sure through our evolutionary processes and adaptative realities and likely over our many human generations, if not prior to the first our ancestors.

With kids though, the elements of play and fun might be difficult to disentangle from much else, given they won't have much cognisance of what others believe until quite a bit later.

 

[Nakosis]

Why lie? We end up cheating ourselves.

Because there are those that'll use the truth against you or someone you care about. Their are some whom don't deserve the truth and there are times when telling the truth will unnecessary harm someone.

As long as I'm honest with myself and not lying to cause any unnecessary harm, I don't see it as cheating.

 

[Balthazzar]

With kids though, the elements of play and fun might be difficult to disentangle from much else, given they won't have much cognisance of what others believe until quite a bit later.

Typically, parents reward their children for certain types of behavior and punish or get angry at them for other types of behavior. Kids are quick to learn the difference, which is why we learn to lie. It's a defense mechanism we are born with. It doesn't matter what the child understands of what others believe. They understand that they get in trouble for some things they apparently enjoy and that's the gist. There are disagreements in what is and what isn't acceptable behavior between child and parental influence. This ends up being a lifelong reality as we venture beyond our homes and become more social with others, who like our parents, sometimes disagree with some things we choose in life.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Because there are those that'll use the truth against you or someone you care about. Their are some whom don't deserve the truth and there are times when telling the truth will unnecessary harm someone.

As long as I'm honest with myself and not lying to cause any unnecessary harm, I don't see it as cheating.

It is utilitarian in the end, but that is also morality.

 

[Balthazzar]

Because there are those that'll use the truth against you or someone you care about. Their are some whom don't deserve the truth and there are times when telling the truth will unnecessary harm someone.

As long as I'm honest with myself and not lying to cause any unnecessary harm, I don't see it as cheating.

That's a valid point and I won't disagree with the premise nor deny a temporary benefit of being dishonest. I use the phrase "cheat myself" due to my personal need to find appropriate environments more conducive to my personal needs as a unique individual. Doing so, generally speaking, would afford me a greater freedom to be myself and would help remove the need or desire to lie to others I associate with.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's a valid point and I won't disagree with the premise nor deny a temporary benefit of being dishonest. I use the phrase "cheat myself" due to my personal need to find appropriate environments more conducive to my personal needs as a unique individual. Doing so, generally speaking, would afford me a greater freedom to be myself and would help remove the need or desire to lie to others I associate with.

Then that is not the truth about morality. That is your truth.