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The Truth About God.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SpiritualSon, May 10, 2004.

  1. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Other religions don't affect my understanding. The simple answer is I don't know. I can't make something of what I don't know.
     
  2. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    I didn't say I was born with it. I said I had a priori knowledge of God.

    Again, a priori knowledge is something which is necessarily true. For example without the a priori knowledge of 4 things, it wouldn't occur to you to add 2 and 2 together. Adding 2 and 2 together would seem like a foolish thing to do.
     
  3. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Not at all.

    There have always been people like you and people like me. People who are open to lies and inventing gods and people who aren't. People who listen to God and people who don't. People who create stories and people who don't.

    I'm just saying, if they were anything like you, they didn't believe in God.

    They invented a god; Thor.

    I can't say I know what the people back then thought or how they came to believe in their gods.

    But apparently people like you do/did invent mythical gods, unicorns, the TOE etc., without any a priori knowledge, from what is/was evident.

    As to your question, it was answered. It is possible in your case.

    However, as to the people who believed in God, you're trying to imagine how they thought from the way you think ie. without the knowledge of God.
     
  4. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    >If you'd been born into a Muslim family, you'd be Muslim right now. It's really that simple.

    But I wasn't.

    I thank God for my family and I thank God I was born into this time and place.
     
  5. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The sin against the Holy Spirit is the denial of the Divine in the Word. For those who deny this deny secretly and in the heart, all things of heaven and the Church, for these are all from the Word. They even deny that the Lord is Divine.

    Harry
     
  6. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Mark T,

    Yes, but if you were a Muslim now, and I had used the same analogy only by saying that you'd be Christian, your response would be the same. Do you see the point here?

    The big issue with this, is that those people of other gods feel just a strongly about them and have just as much confidence in their validity as you do. They would say that YOU are the incorrect one, whereas you say THEY are. Really, how do you know? How can you be so certain that you are right and they are wrong? You could say, as you have before, that it is because you have a priori knowledge of your god and they (people of other faiths and gods) don't, but that is argumentable on so many levels, because they would most certainly say that they do as well.

    I would like to restate that I used to be extremely religious, as did my friend Mr. Spinkles. A year or so ago, I would have claimed to hold such 'a priori knowledge' as well, but I have since 'seen the light'. Therefore, your argument that I cannot understand the minds of religious people is null, because I certainly can--I used to be one.

    Spiritual Son,

    Aw man...I'm just not even gonna go there, dude. :lol:
     
  7. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    >Yes, but if you were a Muslim now, and I had used the same analogy only by saying that you'd be Christian, your response would be the same. Do you see the point here?

    I'm sure it would be. I would think that some Muslim women, for instance, do thank God for being born into their culture. Do you see the point I'm making? You represent a threat to them.

    It makes no difference to my argument.

    Everything exists for God's purpose.

    >The big issue with this, is that those people of other gods feel just a strongly about them and have just as much confidence in their validity as you do. They would say that YOU are the incorrect one, whereas you say THEY are. Really, how do you know? How can you be so certain that you are right and they are wrong? You could say, as you have before, that it is because you have a priori knowledge of your god and they (people of other faiths and gods) don't, but that is argumentable on so many levels, because they would most certainly say that they do as well.

    No doubt they feel strongly about their religion. The Jews felt so strongly about their religion they crucified the Son of God.

    God can make vessels for wrath that are meant for destruction. Do you understand this?

    More than one religion was all it took to confuse you. That just shows that nothing took root in you because of your rebellious nature.

    We can not have false gods.

    You want to be friends with the world but friendship with the world is enmity with God.
     
  8. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Mark T,

    I'm not sure we're on the same page with this one. Could you elaborate your point further?

    I understand that, but it goes both ways. I don't know what religion you are, but I am sure you are familiar with the many burnings of heretics and 'witches' that the Catholic church performed back in the day. Were those Christians not also 'vessels for wrath'? Hmmm...I don't think I see where you're trying to go with that.

    The Jews did indeed feel very strongly about their religion (and still do). My basic question, is how you can be sure your religion is the true one, when all of your evidence (a priori knowledge, ancient documents, etc.) is shared by everyone else as well.

    I am not confused-- I have studied and contemplated for many an hour. Also, I wouldn't say that nothing 'took root' in me, because like I said, I used to be extremely religious, and there was definately something 'growing' there. However, through deeper study, my theological plant seems to have been uprooted. I don't disregard the validity of religion because of those other religions I cited-- things like that certainly helped, but it has been a complex process.

    Replace the word 'rebellious' with 'questioning'. Then you'll have me down.

    But god created the world. How is that supposed to work? Put water in front of a dehydrated person and tell them if they drink it they'll be punished?
     
  9. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    Well that's the spirit of the antiChrist you're talking about. Those who deny Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Those who say he wasn't the Christ, who say he wasn't from God.

    The blasphemy against the Spirit that will not be forgiven is when men try to speak the truth and they are reviled or told to shut up for speaking it, for it's the Spirit that leads us to the truth and we are eager to share it.
     
  10. MarkT

    MarkT Member

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    >I understand that, but it goes both ways. I don't know what religion you are, but I am sure you are familiar with the many burnings of heretics and 'witches' that the Catholic church performed back in the day. Were those Christians not also 'vessels for wrath'? Hmmm...I don't think I see where you're trying to go with that.

    True religion, according to James, is to visit orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained from the world. It's not about burning heretics or carrying on Inquisitions or Crusades.

    I think, by the 4th century, people had fallen back into the old ways of practicing religion. They were acting more like the Jews Jesus critisized for not having the spirit of God, lacking in spirit and love for one another.

    I wonder if it ever occured to them that the heretics were just as Christian as they were.

    As to the "vessels made for wrath", anyone who doesn't believe Jesus was the Christ isn't of God, is a vessel made for wrath. I can't judge anyone outside the church but I can say, God made everything for it's purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

    The trouble is from our perspective today, we can't say whether the Church was weak in the faith or whether it had fallen into temptation. Somehow I don't think you can make a case for temptation to explain the Inquisition.

    Someone actively promoting this way or who thinks it's o.k. to call someone a heretic or worse, I wouldn't consider a brother. Anyone who doesn't know they are breaking the law (thou shalt not kill) is either stupid or is not of God; a devil without the Holy Spirit, posing as a Christian or a Christian in need of correction.

    >The Jews did indeed feel very strongly about their religion (and still do). My basic question, is how you can be sure your religion is the true one, when all of your evidence (a priori knowledge, ancient documents, etc.) is shared by everyone else as well.

    My religion, as I said, is to believe in God. Christianity is a point of view. It's my point of view. Whether it's true or not, we'll find out.

    You're one of those people who has to see to believe. You won't believe Jesus was the Christ until you see him. You may be one of the ones who are saved after the tribulation when Christ returns.

    But as far as "evidence" goes you also fall into the category of the people who turned to false gods like Thor.

    Let's consider how reliable inductive reasoning is. Inductive reasoning, "evidence" of WMD, led to the war with Iraq.
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Mark T,

    I totally agree.

    I smell T-R-O-U-B-L-E! Woohoo! Feel my wrath! :party:

    That is a truly honest answer, and I thank you for that. You are admitting that you don't have all the answers, which is true for everyone, although difficult for some to admit.

    Indeed. If Jesus shows himself to me, then and only then will I get on my knees.

    That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that there is evidence for Thor? Because that would be the only reason I would turn to him.

    Yes, we had some bad intel-- but even Saddam thought he had WPD's. What matters, is that the threat of them was there, so we did what we had to do to ensure the safety of our country.

    Do you know of an alternative method for garnering such information, i.e., could you have kept us out of war? If so, hop a plane to good ol' PA, because the Pentagon wants YOU!
     
  12. Mr Spinkles

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    A question: do you believe that Mohommad was the last and most important Prophet? If not, why? Are you saying you would have to see it to believe it?

    Actually, as far as evidence goes I think you would more likely fall into the category of the people who made up gods like Thor. No evidence required to believe in either god.
     
  13. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    God is one,and the Lord is that God
    From the numerous passages quoted from the Word in the preceding chapter, it is evident that the Lord is called Jehovah, the God of Israel and of Jacob, the Holy One of Israel, Lord, and God, and also King, the Anointed, and David, from which it may be seen, as yet however as through a glass, darkly, that the Lord is God Himself, from and about whom is the Word.

    Now it is known in the whole world that God is one, and no man possessed of sound reason denies it. It remains therefore to confirm this from the Word and, in addition, that the Lord is that God.

    That God is one, is confirmed by these passages of the Word:
    Jesus said, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord; therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul (Mark 12:29, 30).

    Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah; and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul (Deut. 6:4, 5).
    That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone art Jehovah (Isa. 37:20).

    I am Jehovah and there is none else there is no God besides Me that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is no God besides Me: I am Jehovah and there is none else (Isa. 45:5, 6).

    O Jehovah of Armies, God of Israel, that dwellest on the cherubim, Thou art the God, even Thou alone, over all the kingdoms of the earth (Isa. 37:16).

    Is there a God besides Me? and a Rock? I know not any (Isa. 44:8).

    Who is God save Jehovah? and who is a Rock save our God? (Ps. 18:31).


    That the Lord is that God, is confirmed by these passages of the Word:
    Surely God is in thee, and there is none else, there is no God. Verily Thou art a God that hidest Thyself, O God of Israel, the Savior (Isa. 45:14.

    Have not I Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me, a just God and a Savior, there is none besides Me. Look unto Me that ye may be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else (Isa. 45:21,22).

    I am Jehovah, and besides Me there is no Savior (Isa. 43:11).
    I am Jehovah thy God, and thou shalt acknowledge no God but Me; for there is no Savior besides Me (Hos. 13:4).


    Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel, and his Redeemer Jehovah of Armies, I am the First and I am the Last, and besides Me there is no God (Isa. 44:6).



    Jehovah of Armies is His name, and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel the God of the whole earth shall He be called (Isa. 54:5).

    In that day Jehovah shall be king over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Jehovah, and His name one (Zech. 14:9).

    As the Lord alone is the Savior and the Redeemer, and as it is said that Jehovah is that Savior and Redeemer, and that there is none besides Him, it follows that the one God is no other than the Lord.

    The trinity of three Divine persons before creation contradicts the sayings of Jehovah God above.

    Harry
     
  14. Mr Spinkles

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    The preceeding chapter?? Are you copying and pasting sermons, SpiritualSon?
     
  15. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Prove it.
     
  16. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    ...without the bible, if you would.
     
  17. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    im kinda new hear, so dont attack me in fury.

    i believe there is one God.

    the bible confuses me, it has two different characters of Gods from the OT and the NT. one is distant, the other is walking among humans. its real confusing, i guess thats why i dont follow it.

    contrary to what the bible believes, God has no figure. rather, he exists everywhere. universally. he has no gender, (but i use he cuz 'it' doesnt sound respectfull enough). i also believe that he cannot speak to humans directly.

    oh well..
     
  18. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Gerani, no one here will attack you, your ideas and statements maybe, but not you. We do try to keep it civil. So, please feel free to discuss anything on your mind. Welcome to the forum. :hi:
     
  19. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Gerani, Welcome!

    Personally, I do not believe in the bible, but when I did, this is the explanation I would have given you:

    The bible is not to be taken literally, rather it is made up of 'stories' per say. The difference that you see between the two portrayals of god, perhaps comes from the fact that people in the OT were very different from people in the NT, and therefore needed a much different god figure to 'speak' to them. Whereas people of the OT needed someone to come in and lay down the law, people of the NT were more advanced, and needed someone to talk to them and more coax them along. It seems to be a bit of a progression. People of the OT were primitive, and therefore seem to be treated like children, whereas people of the NT are more established and are treated more like adults.
     
  20. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    That the induction of the good of one person into another, is impossible.
    That every man is born in evil.

    That man is led into good through regeneration by the Lord. That this is effected by faith in the Lord, and by a life according to His commandments. Wherefore the good of one cannot by application be transferred to another,and so imputed.

    That every man is born in evil, is known in the church. This evil is said to be hereditary from Adam.but it is from our parents, from whom everyone derives his disposition or inclination.

    That it is so experience and reason proves.For the likenesses of parents may be traced in the faces, characters, and manners of their children,and their posterity.

    Hence families are distinguished by many, and their propensities are also judged of: wherefore, the evils which parents have contracted,are transmitted by propagation to their posterity, under a species of inclination towards them.Hence are derived the evils into which men are born.
    Man is led into good through regeneration by the Lord. That there is regeneration, and that unless one is regenerated, he cannot enter into heaven, is very evident from the Lord's words in John 3:3, 5. That regeneration is purification from evils, and renovation of life, cannot lie hidden in the Christian world, for reason also sees this, whilst it acknowledges that everyone is born in evil, and that evil cannot be washed and wiped away, like filth by soap and water, but by repentance.

    That this is effected by faith in the Lord, and by a life according to His commandments. That evils ought to be shunned, because they are of the devil and from the devil.Goods ought to be done, because they are of God and from God.The Lord is to be approached, that He may lead us so to do.

    Let everyone consider and weigh with himself, whether good can be derived to man from any other source; and if he has not good he cannot be saved.

    Wherefore the good of one cannot by application be transferred to another,and so imputed.By regeneration man is renewed as to his spirit, and that this is effected by faith in the Lord, and at the same time by a life according to His commandments.

    Man is like a tree.His regeneration must take time.
    Who does not see, that this renewal of man can only be effected from time to time, nearly in like manner as a tree takes root, and grows successively from a seed, and is perfected?

    They who have a different notion of regeneration and renovation, know nothing of the state of man, nor anything about evil and good, as that they are diametrically opposite to each other, and that good cannot be implanted but in proportion as evil is removed.

    Neither do they know, that so long as anyone is in evil, he is averse to good which in itself is really good.Therefore if the good of one were to be applied and so induced into another who is in evil, it would be like casting a lamb to a wolf, or fastening a pearl to a hog's snout.

    Harry
     
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