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The Truth About God.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SpiritualSon, May 10, 2004.

  1. Mr Spinkles

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    Once again, these are all claims Spiritual Son.

    For example, you say God is infinite because "He was before the world was"....but this is yet another claim. It is not supported by anything other than your personal beleif in it to be true.
     
  2. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    God is Infinite because He was before the world was, thus before spaces and times arose. In the natural world there are spaces and times.

    So why is not written down anywhere as to what happened before god created the universe? If he is infinite, he must have a lot of stories to tell and wisdom to depart. Why does everything written in scriptures only deal with what happened after creation? The scriptures are the word of god, right?

    What the heck was god doing before he decided to create the universe?

    Time and space were introduced into these worlds for the purpose of distinguishing one thing from another, the great from the small, the many from the few, thus quantity from quantity,and so quality from quality.

    … ying and yang, Tom and Jerry, Willie and the Poorboys, yo and yo. What the heck are you talking about?

    The Infinite became finite so that it may be understood by men.

    I can understand the infinite, thank you very much.

    What happened to your god, is he now finite as well?
     
  3. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Who? What? When? Where? How?

    I need cold hard evidence here, Harry. Don't tell me how it is, show me.
     
  4. teapot_tall_and_yummy

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    Q... just curious as to how you understand the infinite... cause i know i have yet to hear a darn good explanation of it

    Spiritual Son... to say God is finite is a question to me as a believer in God.. can you explain that one?
     
  5. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The Divine fills every space and interval of space in the universe independently of space. Nature has two properties, space and time. A person in the natural world forms his mental concepts and his understanding in accordance with them.

    If he remains immersed in these concepts and does not raise his mind above them, he is incapable of ever perceiving anything spiritual or Divine, for he wraps his notions of them in ideas drawn from space and time, and to the extent that he does this, to the same extent the sight of his intellect becomes merely natural.

    To think from this sight in reasoning about spiritual and Divine matters is like thinking from the darkness of night about things which appear only in the light of day. That is the origin of naturalism.*
    In contrast, one who knows how to raise his mind above concepts drawn from space and time passes from darkness into light, and he discerns matters spiritual and Divine, and finally sees the components in them and effects springing from them. Moreover, from the light in which he is then, he dispels the darkness of his natural sight and banishes its misconceptions from the center to the peripheries.

    Every man possessing the intellect has the capacity to think on a level above the aforesaid properties of nature, and also actually does so think, and he then affirms and sees that the Divine, being omnipresent, is not bounded by space.

    He is also able as well to affirm and see those points which we have presented above. But if he denies the Divine omnipresence and attributes all phenomena to nature, he is in that case unwilling to be elevated, even though he has the capacity to be.

    Everything in the natural world are correspondences to the spiritual world.When man thinks according to correspondences, and lives according to God's Divine Order, he thinks spiritually,above space and time. All creatures in the natural world are correspondenes of man's thoughts and affections.

    The sun coming up in the east,and setting in the west is a correspondences.

    The sun correspondences to God,because its heat correspondences to love,and its light correspondences to wisdom. Love is of charity,and wisdom is of truth. God's Divine Essence is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom.

    In the natural world space in Nature is measurable, and so is time. Time is measured by days, weeks, months, years and centuries.

    Days are measured by hours, weeks and months by days, years by the four seasons, and centuries by years. All those are correspondences of changes of states of the church in man.

    Harry
     
  6. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Why do you feel anybody has to prove to you anything?
    Why are you here?

    We have ancient lit. to back up what we say. Besides truth is an individual affair.
     
  7. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    anchient lit also talks about the Egyption virsion of creation... and the chinese and the greek... therefore they are equily valid as the bible.

    just because its written down doesn't make it true...

    fiction is written down as well...

    wa:-do
     
  8. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Well at least its a tangible thing. As was Jesus Christ. I'd rather believe in something then fall for anything.
     
  9. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    God is one, in Person and in Essence.

    Jehovah God is Substance itself and Form itself and angels and men are substances and forms from Him, and so far as they are in Him and He in them they are images and likenesses of Him.

    As God is Esse He is also Substance.For unless Esse is substance it is a figment of reason. For substance has subsistent being. Moreover, one who is a substance is also a form. For unless a substance is a form it is a figment of reason.

    Wherefore both substance and form may be predicated of God, but in the sense that He is the only, the very, and the primal Substance and Form. That this Form is the verily Human Form, that is, that God is verily Man, infinite in every respect.

    Let it be known that Man cannot be an image of God, after His likeness, unless God is in him and is his life from the inmost. That God is in man and, from the inmost, is his life,which is his love. Love is man's life, that God alone is life (love), and that men and angels are recipients of life (love)from Him.

    Moreover, that God is in man and that He makes His abode with him, is known from the Word. For which reason it is customary for preachers to declare that men ought to prepare themselves to receive God, that He may enter into them, and be in their hearts, that they may be His dwelling-place.

    The devout man says the same in his prayers, and some speak more openly respecting the Holy Spirit,which they believe to be in them when they are in holy zeal, and from that zeal they think, speak, and preach.

    That the Holy Spirit is the Lord, and not a God who is a person by Himself, has been shown in The Doctrine of the New Jerusalem Concerning the Lord.

    For the Lord declares:
    In that day ye shall know that ye are in Me,and I in you (John 14:20)so also in (15:4,5)(17:23).

    Harry
     
  10. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    God is Love itself and Wisdom itself, and these two constitute His Divine Essence. In the earliest ages it was seen that love and wisdom are the two essentials to which all the infinite things that are in God and proceed from God have reference.

    In succeeding ages, as they withdrew their minds from heaven and immersed them in things worldly and corporeal, gradually became unable to see this, for they gradually ceased to know what love is in its essence, and thus what wisdom is in its essence, not knowing that love abstracted from a form is impossible, and that love operates in a form and through a form.

    Since, then, God is the Itself and the Only, and the first substance and form, the essence of which is love and wisdom, and since from Him were made all things that were made, it follows that He created the universe with each thing and all things of it from love by means of wisdom.

    Consequently the Divine love, together with the Divine wisdom, is in each and all created subjects. Love, moreover, is not merely the essence that forms all things, it is also that which unites and conjoins them, and thus, when they are formed, holds them in connection.

    All this may be illustrated by innumerable things in the world; as by the heat and light from the sun, which are the two essentials and universals by means of which each thing and all things on the earth have their existence and subsistence.

    Heat and light are there because they correspond to the Divine love and Divine wisdom; for the heat that goes forth from the sun of the spiritual world is in its essence love, and the light from it is in its essence wisdom.

    This, again, may be illustrated by the two essentials and universals, namely, the will and the understanding, by means of which human minds have their existence and subsistence.For these two everyone's mind consists, and they are in, and operate in, each thing and all things of the mind. This is because the will is the receptacle and habitation of love, as the understanding is of wisdom.

    For this reason these two correspond to the Divine love and the Divine wisdom in which they originated.

    The same truth may be illustrated further by the two essentials and universals by means of which the human body has its existence and subsistence, namely, the heart and lungs, or the contraction and dilatation of the heart and the respiration of the lungs.

    It is known that these two are operative in each and all things in the body; and for the reason that the heart corresponds to love, and the lungs to wisdom.

    Harry
     
  11. Alaric

    Alaric Active Member

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    If you're just copying and pasting, Harry, then you're wasting everyone's time.
     
  12. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    If he remains immersed in these concepts and does not raise his mind above them, he is incapable of ever perceiving anything spiritual or Divine

    Yeah, I hear this all the time, but no one has ever been able to tell me exactly what it is I’m supposed to perceive. Can you?

    Every man possessing the intellect has the capacity to think on a level above the aforesaid properties of nature, and also actually does so think, and he then affirms and sees that the Divine, being omnipresent, is not bounded by space.

    Once again, what “level above” are we supposed to be thinking? Can you explain?

    But if he denies the Divine omnipresence and attributes all phenomena to nature, he is in that case unwilling to be elevated, even though he has the capacity to be

    But there is nothing else to see aside from nature, therefore nothing to deny.

    Everything in the natural world are correspondences to the spiritual world.

    But the spiritual world has never been shown to exist. Where is it? How doe it connects to the physical world? By what mechanism does it connects?

    When man thinks according to correspondences, and lives according to God's Divine Order, he thinks spiritually,above space and time

    How does one think “according to correspondences?” Spirituality exists only in the imagination, is that where the divine order exists, as well?

    All creatures in the natural world are correspondenes of man's thoughts and affections.

    Sorry, this makes no sense. Please explain.

    The sun coming up in the east,and setting in the west is a correspondences.

    No, it is a result of the spinning of the Earth – did you not learn that in school?

    The sun correspondences to God,because its heat correspondences to love,and its light correspondences to wisdom.

    So, the hotter it gets, the more love emanates from the sun? Is wisdom only available in the daytime and not the night?

    All those are correspondences of changes of states of the church in man.

    Funny how all those things existed long before man and his church.

    Harry, your ramblings are cute and fanciful and somewhat philosophical but mean absolutely nothing, except perhaps to you. They are so ambiguous that one cannot make out exactly what it is you’re trying to say.

    In other words, you sound just like a bible.

    You’re here to preach, aren’t you?
     
  13. (Q)

    (Q) Active Member

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    Well at least its a tangible thing. As was Jesus Christ. I'd rather believe in something then fall for anything.

    How do you know you haven't already?
     
  14. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Because a faith that can not survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets

    Q, you ask alot of questions. Perhaps you should seek answers elsewhere
     
  15. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The Word was written in correspondences.

    When Jehovah God was in the world under the name Jesus Christ He spoke by correspondences, thus that He spoke spiritually while He spoke naturally, is evident from His parables, in each and every word of which there is a spiritual sense.

    Take for example the parable of the ten virgins:
    The kingdom of the heavens is like unto ten virgins, who took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom; five of them were wise, and five were foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil, but the wise took oil in their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried they all slumbered and slept; and at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh, go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins awaked, and trimmed their lamps; and the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out; but the wise answered, saying, Not so, lest there be not enough for us and you; but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready went in with him to the wedding, and the door was shut. Afterwards came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, lord, open to us; but he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not (Matt. 25:1-12).

    That there is a spiritual sense in each and every one of these things, and a consequent Divine holiness, can be seen by him only who knows that a spiritual sense exists, and what is its nature.

    In the spiritual sense, the "kingdom of God" means heaven and the church.The "bridegroom," the Lord.The "wedding," the marriage of the Lord with heaven and the church by means of the good of love and of faith.

    "Virgins" signify those who are of the church; "ten," all; "five," some; "lamps," the truths of faith; "oil," the good of love; to "sleep," and to "awake," the life of man in this world which is natural life, and his life after death which is spiritual; to "buy," to procure for themselves; to "go to them that sell and buy oil," to procure for themselves the good of love from others after death; and as this can then be no longer procured, although they came with their lamps and the oil they had bought to the door where the wedding was, yet the bridegroom said to them "I know you not."

    The reason is that after his life in this world a man remains such as he had lived in this world.

    From all this it is evident that the Lord spoke exclusively by correspondences, and this because He spoke from the Divine that was in Him called the Father, and was His.

    That the "bridegroom" signifies the Lord.The "kingdom of the heavens," the church; a "wedding," the marriage of the Lord with the church by means of the good of love and of faith; "ten," all; "five," some; to "sleep," a natural state; to "buy," to procure for one's self; a "door," entrance into heaven; and "not to know them," when spoken by the Lord, not to be in His love, is evident from many passages in the prophetic Word where these expressions have a like signification.

    It is because "virgins" signify those who are of the church that the virgin and daughter of Zion, of Jerusalem, of Judah, and of Israel are so often mentioned in the prophetic Word. And it is because "oil" signifies the good of love that all the holy things of the Israelitish church were anointed with oil. It is the same with all the other parables, and with all the words the Lord spoke, and that were written in the Gospels.

    This is why the Lord says that His words are spirit and are life (John 6:63).

    It is the same with all the Lord's miracles, which were Divine because they signified the various states of those with whom the church was to be set up anew by the Lord.When the blind received sight, it signified that they who had been in ignorance of truth should receive intelligence.

    When the deaf received hearing, it signified that they who had previously heard nothing about the Lord and the Word should hearken and obey; when the dead were raised, it signified that they who otherwise would spiritually perish would become living, and so on.

    This is meant by the Lord's reply to the disciples of John, who sent them to ask whether He was the one that should come:
    Tell John the things which ye do hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead rise again, and the poor hear the gospel (Matt.11:3-5).

    Moreover, all the miracles related in the Word contain in them such things as belong to the Lord, to heaven, and to the church. This makes these miracles Divine, and distinguishes them from those which are not Divine. These few examples are given in order to illustrate what the spiritual sense is, and to show that it is in all things of the Word and in every particular of it.

    Harry
     
  16. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    true blood,

    Number one, no one knows what the 'ultimate truth' is, or if there even is one, so how do you now your religion has survived a collision with it? Number two, are you aware of the great many different religions which are thriving today? Only one of them can be true, yet all of them have survived the same test of time. Perhaps that test is not as qualified for finding truth as you think.

    Lastly, this is a debate forum. If you cannot answer Q's questions, maybe you should seek elsewhere. (for I have an acute feeling that it is because you cannot not because you will not)
     
  17. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Ceridwen018, Yes i do believe I know the abosolute truth. Secondly, I don't believe in religion so don't label me. And as for answering Q's questions its my choice. If I thought he was sincere in his questioning maybe I would but quite frankly I don't give a who. And as for debating..Q and others like yourselves will make a statement or a denial but NEVER post any other works that might support your side.
     
  18. Mr Spinkles

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    Perhaps that's because I come to my conclusions based on my own questioning and logic, rather than the what was written by someone else thousands of years ago.
     
  19. ONEWAY

    ONEWAY Member

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    Hello all and God Bless. Hey, I just want to first say that God is real and His love for you will not cease, even if you do not accept Him. However, the choice is yours to make, "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:9-10,13)." In addition, the one true God is one God three persons. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, as scripture has revealed Him.
    Now, as for the reliability of the Bible there is no book with more reliability or a foundation that to this day has not been shaken by skeptics, individuals who have actually have constistently tried to destroy the Bible throughout history, non-skeptics, critisicm, or any other action. The Bible is reliable because:
    1. It has thousands of prophecies, which have come to pass to their exactness. For example, during this empire this king will be born to this family and his name will be this. Except the empire had not existed, and yet it came to pass. In addition, the prophecies were very specific by which the Messiah Jesus Christ had all prophecies concerning His first coming, fulfilled to their exactness. The chance of one of 8 prophecies(Their 300+ prophecies concerning Jesus, some concerning His second coming) occurring would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That is just eight, He fulfilled nearly 300.
    2. Throghout history the Bible has proven right even when skeptics have denied its historic accuracy. For example, the Hittites were once considered to not exist outside the Bible by skeptics. Then, they were found, or at least the evidence for their existence was, again proving the Bible's reliablity.
    3. To denie the new testament's reliablity would mean that one would have to deny Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato, Demosthenes, Caesar, Livy, Tacitus, and other such classic authors, because the new testament not only has copies written at least 50 years from the actual occurence, but as many as 25,000 copies proving its reliablity. The most from the classic author Homer is 643.
    4. If one were to lose all the new testament copies, they could reproduce the new testament from other sources like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen, and many more.
    5. It was written by 40 authors at different times, places, moods, three different continents, and individuals of completely different character. However, it has been constistent throughout. One purpose, the redemption of mankind.

    There are many other examples of reliability, but I guess I would have to write a book to truly do the Bible and you justice. Also, I urgently remind you that the choice is yours to accept or deny the truth (John 14:6). No one is assured today or tomorrow, so please see the urgency in making a decision.

    Thanks for reading, and God Bless (Romans 10:9-10, 13)
     
  20. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    The Human whereby Jehovah God sent Himself into the world is the Son of God. The Lord frequently says that the Father sent Him, and that He was sent by the Father (as in Matt 10:40)(15:24) (John 3:17, 34) (5:23,24,36-38) ( 6:29,39,40,44,57) (7:16,18,28,29) (8:16,18,29,42) (9:4); and this He says, because "being sent into the world" means to descend and come among men.This was done by means of a human which He took on through the virgin Mary.

    Moreover, the Human is actually the Son of God, because it was conceived from Jehovah God as its Father (according to Luke 1:32,35). He is called "the Son of God," "the Son of man," and "the son of Mary;" "the Son of God" means Jehovah God in His Human."The Son of man" the Lord in respect to the Word.While "the son of Mary" means strictly the human He took on. Jehovah God has always been a Divine Human.

    Jehovah God is one,in Person and in Essence,not three persons,one Person

    Harry
     
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