1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Truth About God.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SpiritualSon, May 10, 2004.

  1. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    My name is Harry.I am a member of the New Church (Swedenborg).

    The entire Holy Scripture, and all the doctrines therefrom of the churches in the Christian world, teach that there is a God and that He is one. The entire Holy Scripture teaches that there is a God, because in its inmosts it is nothing but God, that is, it is nothing but the Divine that goes forth from God; for it was dictated by God.

    From God nothing can go forth except what is God and is called Divine. This the Holy Scripture is in its inmosts. But in its derivatives, which are below and from these inmosts, the Holy Scripture is adapted to the perception of angels and men.

    The Divine is likewise in these derivatives, but in another form, in which it is called the celestial, spiritual, and natural Divine. These are simply the draperies of God.

    For God Himself, such as He is in the inmosts of the Word, cannot be seen by any creature. For He said to Moses, when Moses prayed that he might see the glory of Jehovah, that no one can see God and live. This is equally true of the inmosts of the Word, where God is in His very Being and Essence.

    Nevertheless, the Divine, which forms the inmost and is draped by things adapted to the perceptions of angels and men, beams forth like light through crystalline forms, although variously in accordance with the state of mind that man has formed for himself; either from God or from himself.

    Before everyone who has formed the state of his mind from God the Holy Scripture stands like a mirror wherein he sees God.But everyone in his own way. This mirror is made up of those truths that man learns from the Word, and that he appropriates by living in accordance with them.

    From all this it is evident, in the first place, that the Holy Scripture is the fullness of God.

    That the Holy Scripture teaches not only that there is a God, but also that God is one,not three, can be seen from the truths which, as before stated, compose that mirror, in that they form a coherent whole and make it impossible for man to think of God except as one.

    In consequence of this, every person whose reason is imbued with any sanctity from the Word knows, as if from himself, that God is one,not three, and feels it to be a sort of insanity to say that there are more god.

    The angels are unable to open their lips to utter the word "gods," for the heavenly aura in which they live resists it. That God is one the Holy Scripture teaches, not only thus universally, as has been said, but also in many particular passages, as in the following:
    Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah (Deut. 6:4; also Mark 12:29).
    Surely God is in thee, and beside Me there is no god (Isa. 45:14).
    Am not I Jehovah? and there is no god besides me? (Isa. 45:21).
    I am Jehovah thy God and thou shalt acknowledge no god beside Me (Hosea 13:4).

    Thus saith Jehovah, the king of Israel, I am the First and the Last, and beside Me there is no god (Isa. 44:6).

    In that day Jehovah shall be king over all the earth; in that day Jehovah shall be one and His name one (Zech. 14:9).

    God is one in person and in Essence.

    Harry
     
  2. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    The unity of God is inmostly inscribed on the mind of every man, since it lies at the center of all that flows from God into the soul of man,and yet it has not descended into the human understanding, for the reason that the knowledges by which man must ascend to meet God have been lacking.

    For everyone must prepare the way for God, that is, must prepare himself for reception.This is done by means of knowledges. The knowledges that have been lacking, and that enable the understanding to penetrate far enough to see that God is one,not three, and that more one Divine Esse is impossible.These knowledges have been lacking; and yet these are the means through which a man may rise to a knowledge of the Divine Esse.

    It is said that the man rises.The meaning is that he is raised up by God. For in acquiring knowledges for himself man exercises his freedom of choice; but as he acquires for himself knowledges from the Word by means of his understanding he prepares the way by which God comes down and raises him up. The knowledges by means of which the human understanding rises, God holding it in His hand and leading it, may be likened to the steps of the ladder seen in a dream by Jacob, which was set upon the earth with the top of it reaching to heaven, by which the angels ascended while Jehovah stood above it (Gen. 28:12,13).
     
  3. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Hi Harry,

    For now, I have just one question to ask of you.

    How do you know that what you have written above is the truth about god?

    You seem like a pretty smart guy to me. I hope you can succeed where others have failed in answering that question.

    :hi:
     
  4. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    Because it is the truth that God is one.He is one in Person and in Essence.God is not in three persons.He is one Person.

    The idea that a Son of God from eternity before creation came down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer.

    As in the following:
    Am I not Jehovah,and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. (Isa.45:21,22. )

    I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isa.43:11.

    I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4.

    That all flesh may know that I am Jehovah your Saviour and your Redeemer. Isa.49:26;60:16.

    As for our Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Isa. 47:4.

    Their Redeemer, the mighty Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Jer. 50:34.

    Jehovah, my rock and my Redeemer. Ps. 19:14.

    Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God. Isa. 48:17; 43:14; 49:7.

    Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer;I am Jehovah who makes all things, and I alone by Myself. Isa.44:24.

    Thus spoke Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth; I am the First and the Last, and there is no God beside me. Isa. 44:6.

    You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Isa. 63:16.

    I will take pity with eternal mercy, thus spoke your Redeemer Jehovah. Isa. 54:8. You had redeemed me, Jehovah of truth. Ps. 31:5.

    Let Israel hope in Jehovah, for there is mercy with Jehovah, with Him is very much redemption. He shall redeem Israel from all his sins. Ps. 130:7, 8.

    Jehovah Zebaoth* is His name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He shall be called the God of all the earth. Isa. 54:5.

    I Jehovah will give thee for a covenant to the people, for a light of the nations. I am Jehovah, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another (Isa. 42:6, 8).

    From these and very many more passages anyone who has eyes, and a mind opened by using his eyes, can see that Jehovah God, who is one, came down and was made man under the name Jesus Christ,in order to effect redemption.

    Can anyone fail to see this as clear as in morning light, so long as he pays attention to those Divine sayings of God Jehovah which have been quoted above?

    Those, however, who are plunged in the shades of night as the result of convincing themselves that there was a trinity before creation,and from this man made trinity a son of God was sent to redeem us,close their eyes (understanding) to those Divine sayings above, and ponder with their eyes shut how to pervert them and make them square with their false ideas.

    Harry
     
  5. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Ok, I see where you're going with this, but that's not quite what I meant. Whether or not god is one or three makes no difference in my mind. I'm talking about the very baseline nature of god, ie: existing or not existing. You mentioned that anyone who had eyes could see the true nature of god revealed to him, as in, they could read the scriptures, but how do you know the scriptures are reliable? Because you have been taught they are?

    You also said that god is adapted to the perception of man. This is interesting, because I believe that it is through the primitive perception of early man that the concept of religion and a higher power came to be invented.

    It also seems odd to me that this very real god cannot be talked to or seen. How very convenient.

    I hope I'm not offending you here, these are just some questions I have.
     
  6. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    It also seems odd to me that this very real god cannot be talked to or seen. How very convenient.

    I hope I'm not offending you here, these are just some questions I have.[/quote]

    Don't worry I am not offended. This same God became Man under the name Jesus Christ. Jehovah God becoming Human took place when the angels came to Mary.

    The angel said to Mary, You will conceive in your womb and give birth [to a son], and you are to give him the name of Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. And Mary said to the angel, How shall this be, seeing I have no knowledge of a man? The angel replied, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, so that the holy thing that is born of you will be called the Son of God. Luke 1:31,32,34,35. The Father was the soul of the child born of Mary.

    Harry
     
  7. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Yes, but how do you know that Jesus was the son of god? Because that's what you've been taught? Because you've read the bible? Neither of those seem like good enough sources to me to bet you're whole life on. In fact, the lack of a multitude of sources available is very fishy to me.
     
  8. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    12,250
    Ratings:
    +2,654
    Harry (Spiritual Son) said
    Everything you've said here is a claim assumed to be true. None of it is backed up, though, except by the fact that "It's in the Bible!". But why blindly accept that the verses in the Bible are true, rather than in any other religious text (the Q'rahn, the Kabbalah, etc)? We shouldn't blindly accept everything that is told to us, right?
     
  9. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    The expressions "that day," "in that day," and "in that time;" in which, by "day," and "time," is meant by Jehovah God's advent into the world

    In Isaiah:
    It shall come to pass in the futurity of days that the mountain of the house of Jehovah shall be established in the top of the mountains. Jehovah alone shall be exalted in that day. The day of Jehovah of Armiea shall be upon everyone that is proud and lofty. In that day a man shall cast away his idols of silver and of gold (Isa. 2:2, 11-12, 20).

    In that day the Lord Jehovah will take away their ornament (Isa. 3:18).
    In that day shall the branch of Jehovah be beautiful and glorious (Isa. 4:2).

    In that day it shall roar against him, and he shall look unto the land, and behold darkness and distress, and the light shall be darkened in the ruins (Isa. 5:30).

    It shall come to pass in that day that Jehovah shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt. In that day the Lord shall shave in the crossings of the river. In that day He shall vivify. In that @day every place shall be for briers and thorns (7:18, 20, 21, 23).

    What will ye do in the day of visitation, which shall come? In that day Israel shall stay upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth (10:3, 20).

    It shall come to pass in that day, that the Root of Jesse, which standeth for an ensign of the peoples, shall the nations seek, and His rest shall be glory. Chiefly in that day shall the Lord seek again the remnant of His people (11:10,11).

    In that day thou shalt say, I will confess unto Thee, O Jehovah. In that day shall ye say, Confess ye to Jehovah, call upon His name (12:1,4).

    The day of Jehovah is at hand, as a laying waste from Shaddai shall it come. Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, and of indignation, and of wrath, and of anger. I will move the heaven, and the earth shall be shaken out of her place, in the day of the wrath of His anger. His time is near, and it cometh, and the days shall not be prolonged (13:6,9,13,22).

    It shall come to pass in that day, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin. In that day shall a man look unto his Maker, and his eyes to the Holy One of Israel. In that day shall the cities of refuge be as the forsaken places of the forest (17:4,7,9).

    In that day there shall be five cities in the land of Egypt that speak with the lip of Canaan. In that day there shall be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of Egypt. In that day there shall be a path from Egypt to Assyria, and Israel shall be in the midst of the land (19:18,19,23,24).

    The inhabitant of the island shall say in that day, Behold our expectation (20:6).

    A day of tumult, and of treading down, and of perplexity, from the Lord Jehovih of Armies (22:5).

    In that day shall Jehovah visit upon the army of the height, and upon the kings of the earth. Alter a multitude of days shall they be visited; then shall the moon blush, and the sun be ashamed (24:21,22,23).

    It shall be said* in that day, Lo, this is our God, for whom we have waited, that He may deliver us (25:9).

    In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah, We have a strong city (26:1).

    In that day Jehovah shall visit with His sword. In that day ye shall answer to it, A vineyard of unmixed wine (27:1, 2, 12,13).

    In that day shall Jehovah of Armies be for a crown of ornament, and for a diadem (28:5).

    In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of darkness (29:18).

    There are many more passages that state the coming of Jehovah God into this world. Isaiah 9:6

    In that day Jehovah shall visit with His sword. Didn't Jesus say He did not come to bring peace but a sword.The word sword in the Word means truth.

    Harry
     
  10. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    SpiritualSon--

    Forgive me here buddy, but what are you talking about????

    That last post was really long, really boring, and really irrelevent.

    I don't see how that possibly answers any of the questions I've asked at all.

    One last note: As far as quoting the bible goes, you can save it. I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but to me the bible holds absolutely no merit whatsoever, least of all in the area of evidence, which I assume is how you were bizzarely trying to portray it in your last post.
     
  11. teapot_tall_and_yummy

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    101
    Ratings:
    +0
    when it comes to truth.... clearly theres no agreement whatsoever. God is truth. Allah is truth. Whatever. Why take the Bible literally? If you were to read a book, you probably would come out with a general idea and feeling about the message of the book. Instead of quoting the damn Bible and saying 'Here, look, God is truth' just live the message you retrieve from the Bible. When everything is taken literally, it clashes horribly. Little specific things turn into huge issues. But if you were to live in the manner that you felt the Bible asked you to, and Muslims lived the gnereal tone of the Quran, etc, you might find a lot of people getting along. There is no one truth, only peoples perceptions of it. 'Truths' clash too much to have one clear winner. Until some all powerful dude literally comes around smacks us all in the head and says yo this is how it goes, people simply are not going to agree.
     
  12. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0


    God is Love itself and Wisdom itself, and these two constitute His Divine Essence.

    Harry
     
  13. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Yes Harry, you are right, I do not believe in god-- although there was a time when I was very religious. For the sake of this debate, pretend like you're trying to convert me back (if that's not what you genuinely want to do, which would be fine also, hehe)

    And on that note, my question: How do you know that god is 'love' and 'wisdom'? More importantly, how do you know he is divine?
     
  14. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    The Son of God is the Human Form Jehovah God the Father had assumed in the world.Born of the virgin Mary. The Father is the soul of the Son.The Lord said in the Word,"My Father and I are one.They are one as soul and body of Jesus Christ. I know you are searching for truth.

    These three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are the three essentials of one God, and they make one as soul, body and operation make one in man.

    Harry
     
  15. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,833
    Ratings:
    +189
    How is that any indication of proof? That's like me saying "Coca Cola is a good thing" and when asked to prove it responding, "I'd like to buy the world a home and furnish it with love, grow apple trees and honey bees, and snow white turtle doves. I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, I'd like to buy the world a Coke and keep it company. It's the real thing, Coke is what the world wants today."
     
  16. Bastet

    Bastet Vile Stove-Toucher

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Messages:
    5,554
    Ratings:
    +606
    :lol: Ah, Runt, I love your posts! :lol:
     
  17. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Well said Runt, haha!

    But seriously: SpiritualSon, you mentioned 'The Word'. I am assuming that that is what you think proves everything, so expand on that a little. Why do you think 'The Word' is legitimate?
     
  18. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,833
    Ratings:
    +189
    *smiles and raises hand* I know, I know!

    *recites like good little religious kid* "God exists and wrote the Bible, and I know this because the Bible says so!"
     
  19. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    God is Infinite because He is Being and Existence in Himself, and because all things in the universe have their being and existence from Him. It has been already shown that God is One,that He is the Itself, that He is the primal Esse of all things, and that all things in the universe that have being, existence, and subsistence, are from Him, and consequently that He is infinite.

    That human reason is able from very many things in the created universe to recognize this will be made clear hereafter. But although the human mind is able from all this to acknowledge that the primal Being or primal Esse is infinite, it is nevertheless unable to comprehend what that Being is, and therefore can only define it as the infinite All and the Self-subsistent, and hence as the very and the only substance; and since nothing can be predicated of substance unless it has form, it is the very and only Form. But what does this mean?

    It does not make clear what the infinite is; for the human mind itself, even when in the highest degree analytical and exalted, is finite; and its finiteness is inseparable from it; and for this reason the human mind is wholly incapable of seeing the infinity of God as it is in Itself thus of seeing God.Although it can from behind see God obscurely.

    As was said to Moses when he prayed to see God:
    That he should be placed in a cleft of the rock,and should see His back parts (Exod. 33:20-23).

    Harry
     
  20. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    God is Infinite because He was before the world was, thus before spaces and times arose. In the natural world there are spaces and times.

    In the spiritual world these exist only apparently,and not actually. Time and space were introduced into these worlds for the purpose of distinguishing one thing from another, the great from the small, the many from the few, thus quantity from quantity,and so quality from quality.

    Also to enable the bodily senses to distinguish between their objects, and the mental senses between theirs, and thereby to be affected, and to think and choose.

    The Infinite became finite so that it may be understood by men. In order for Jehovah the infinite God to redeem us He had to finite.

    Harry
     
Loading...