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Featured The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SLPCCC, Jun 1, 2020.

  1. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    Question to you is: did Jesus blaspheme because he said he existed, was, is, before Abraham? How do you figure Jesus meant it? Again -- what does I AM mean? After all, what were the contexts of the usages? One must look at the context as well.
     
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  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    When we're born to or basically from someone, in humans' case, two people, are we those persons that begat us?
     
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  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Please read Jesus' statement at John 4 23,24. He said: " We worship what we know." (Talking about the Jews.) Then he goes on to discuss the Father.

    Knowing who God is, should be basic.

    When Jesus was praying to his Father in John 17:3, what did he say? "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of You, the (what?) Only True God, AND of the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ."

    Two distinct people...one was God "only".
     
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  4. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    According to the Scripture, it was not God Himself speaking to Moses, but the angel of the LORD.

    Exo 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
    Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
    Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
    Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

    It was the angel who appeared in the bush. In verse 4 the angel is called LORD and God who called out to Moses from the bush.
     
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  5. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    True. So is the angel saying what??
     
  6. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    You are not answering my question but that's ok. If we can focus on the scriptures and on not on making assumptions maybe we can line up what is written with historical evidence. I'll give you John 8:58 “before Abraham was born, I am!” Let's just say you are right for the sake of argument in order to look at other scriptures. If you are a serious sincere bible student, then you will know that it is important to refer to other scriptures to see if they debunk or support this and other scriptures.

    At the same time, historical evidence is also important to line up with the scriptures. So far we have seen that even historians that are nontrinitarians agree that when Jesus says "I Am" He is calling himself God. In fact, I have found that most, if not all theologians and religious historians, agree with this point. But for the sake of argument let's move on.

    Colossians 1:15-17 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him, all things hold together.

    We know that Jesus was the word. He was God's mouthpiece. He created All Things. IF he created ALL THINGS, what did God create?
    ALL THINGS! Correct? Could this be because God was the Word and the Word was God?

    Godwastheword.gif
     
  7. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    I don't agree that Jesus is calling himself God when he said "I am." He said, in essence or on writing, he is...before Abraham. That by itself does not mean he is saying he is God, part of a triune godhead. And it does not necessarily mean he is saying I am God. It is grammatically incorrect anyway.
     
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  8. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    I understand. One scripture alone is not enough to prove a point. I'm sure Athanasius when making his argument, did not use this one scripture only.

    The following scripture reminds me of Colossians 1:15-17. At Isaiah God is saying that he is the maker of all things just like when it says at Col 1:15-17 that Jesus, the word, created All Things. And notice that God says "BY Myself" and "All Alone"

    Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

    How can God create all things and by himself if Jesus also created all things? One can easily conclude that God was the word.

    Godwastheword.gif
     
  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You see, to me, the important part of that is "firstborn".
    What does that mean?
    Do you think maybe, that God wanted to teach His firstborn, to give him a feeling of (satisfaction, accomplishment, [add adjective])? Showing love, what any real father would do?
    And don't forget the very first line of that verse: he is the "image" of the invisible God.
    An image is not the real thing. It's a representation.
     
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  10. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    Is it possible they (the two) worked together, in harmony with each other, but they were not equal?
     
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  11. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    True. Thanks for that.
     
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  12. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    The phrase "firstborn of all creation" is not dealing with time.

    At (Psalm 89:20-27). God states, “I have found David My servant. With My holy oil I have anointed him…I also shall make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth, David was not the firstborn of his family. In fact, he was the last one born. David is called the firstborn, "the highest of the kings of the earth." Firstborn is a title of preeminence. Jesus is the highest of the kings of the earth.

    At Genesis 41:51-52 it says, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh … And the name of the second called he Ephraim At Jeremiah 31:9 it states, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn,"

    Note that the firstborn title was transferred from Manasseh to Ephraim the second one born. You can clearly see that the term "firstborn" does not necessitate the first one created or the first one born.

    At Revelation 1:5 it states, … and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

    Isaiah 9:6 foretells the firstborn to come, "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

    Look at the title Mighty God. The adjective being used is Mighty. At Isaiah 10: 21 it says … remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. Jeremiah 32:18 pronounces: … O great and mighty God. And Zephaniah lauds in similar terms: "The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one" (Zephaniah 3:17). Who is this mighty one? The answer is in Isaiah 9:6 and notice that he is also called "Eternal Father"

    So this firstborn son, the image of God, is also the Mighty God and Eternal Father. This all makes sense when you put everything together and take everything in context.
     
  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I don’t agree, but let’s go with that view, in the context of Colossians 1.... put preeminence there.

    Jesus is ‘preeminent of all creation.’

    That still makes him part of the creation. Just the highest one.

    (David was still a King. Get that?)
    .
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    It doesn’t matter what I think. It matters what the text actually says.
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I don’t have a problem with your belief. It’s not strictly Trinitarian, but I don’t think that’s really here nor there. Look, I think we spend way too much time trying to explain God, when we ought to be spending time exploring God. We spend too much time defining God, when we should be experiencing God. The creeds and doctrines all try to do the former. But the idea of three Persons, one God, and the intuition that all three are, in some way, in a position of sharing Godhood creates space for us to encounter God in a way that satisfies our basic need for connectedness and togetherness.
     
    #95 sojourner, Jun 4, 2020
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  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    It didn’t matter....they were volatile!
    Read Luke 4:23-29.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Bingo! It doesn’t matter what we believe. It only matters what the texts are saying.
     
  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    Yes, Jesus is in the position of a mighty god. He was the reflection of His Father when he was in human form. But he was not a mighty God at that point, although obviously was given power by God, his Father. Hebrews 1:2 says, "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe." Did Jesus appoint himself as "heir of all things"?
     
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  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I think you’re wrong. Bread of Life, Way, Truth, Life — all the others too — these are poetic ways of climbing Divinity. How could a mere human be the Bread of Life?
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No, but we share DNA, history, name, ancestors, identity, extended family, and we are co-equal persons in the same family community.
     
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