The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[eik]

There is simply no way that Christ before or after his ascension was "eternally co-equal" to the Father. Or, for that matter, the holy spirit if you consider the holy spirit God, which we have not discussed.

I agree, he wasn't co-equal, as by 1 Cor 11:3 "God is the head of Christ." As Christ affirmed, the Father was greater than he, Jn 14:28.

Christ has the power, and will be giving everything over to the Father in time. Please notice the following scriptures showing that the were no co-equals.
1 Corinthians 15:25-27 (Berean Study Bible) "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him."
Christ has been GIVEN power. That he had been given power means he did not always have it. He and the Father are not co-equals because his Father GAVE him Matthew 28:18: "Jesus came to them and said: I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth!." He did not grab, or seize power, or lie, as Satan did. Then the Bible says he will turn everything over to the FATHER. (Nothing about holy spirit God there. It is the Son and the FATHER. They're not co-equals in a trinity formation.)
Have a good day, eik.

Yet they are co-equal in somes senses, in that they are both "in the form of God," they are both "on the throne of God" and they along with the Holy Spirit can be "blasphemed" because of their divinity.

So of course, I concur with the matter than there is no equality of headship, for the Father is over all (Eph 4:6), but there is equality in the sense that all including the Holy Spirit have the "form of God" which includes coeternity.

 

[SLPCCC]

Heb. 1:6, "Let the angels do proskuneo to him."​

• 'And let all God's angels do obeisance to him" JW's The New World Translation, 1981.
  
• "All of God's angels must worship him." GNT Bible

The Greek word proskuneo means worship: fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, obeisance. Obeisance means, "bending the head or body or knee as a sign of reverence or submission or shame." The English word "obeisance" does not carry the act of worship. But they were not writing in English they were writing in Greek, so proskuneo means obeisance (worship in Greek).

At Acts 10:25-26 in the JWs bible, New World Translation, it reads of a incident where Peter rejected “obeisance” because he realized that it should be given only to God.

• As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet, and did obeisance to him. But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I too am just a man.”

I’m mentioning the WTS bible because At Hebrews 1:6 and many other passages where Jesus is said to receive “worship,” their New World Translation renders proskuneo (the Greek word for “worship”) as “do obeisance to.”

The WTS argues that “obeisance” is not worship but is merely respectful honor. But they translate the same word for proskuneo correctly as worship in other places. The New World Translation is simply a slanted Bible that is used to support Jehovah's Witness' theology. As was stated the English word "obeisance" does not carry sufficiently the act of worship, in English. The early Christians wrote in Greek and so the writing in Greek, proskuneo means obeisance (worship in Greek) and should be translated as worship in their bible. The Watchtower Organization has methodically altered the Bible to make it agree with their theology.

In Hebrews 1:6, God commands that all the angels worship Jesus and not just give Him obeisance. The ASV, KJV, NASB, NIV, NKJV, and RSV all translate the verse to say "worship." At Revelation 22:8-9 we read of an incident where John “fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed him thing,

• And he said to me, ‘Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God.’

Jesus is worship and prayed to.


The Lamb receives Worship

• REVELATION 5:11-14: “And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, ‘Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.’ And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, ‘To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.’ And the four living creatures kept saying, ‘Amen.’ And the elders fell down and worshiped.”
  

Since the scriptures say that Jesus is prayed to and receives worship, clearly I can now see how historians, theologians, and Athanasius say that Jesus was worshiped by the early Christians as GOD.

 

[SLPCCC]

Jesus quoted that scripture. He spoke of one only true God and these other gods died just like mortals. Including Jesus. He died. He prayed to the only true God. Jesus was human. Thoroughly. He used that scripture in Psalms to show that they were called gods on the inspired scriptures. He never ever used the word wrongly. He told the truth. He was the Son of God. Not God in a triune combination.

Jesus never died. His body died but it was raised up by him. Only God can raise the dead. Jesus is God.

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

 

[SLPCCC]

Exodus 20 2,3 'American Standard Version':

2" I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Amazing that trinitarians can't see the problem this creates for them! Maybe later...like we eventually did, like many Jehovah's Witnesses have done, before we humbly 'wiped the blindness away.' 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Why is it you can't see that Jehovah says that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." but at the same time

1. He calls Jesus Mighty God.
2. At John 1:1 the word is God
3. Jesus is prayed to
4. Jesus is worshiped

 

[eik]

Jesus never died. His body died but it was raised up by him. Only God can raise the dead. Jesus is God.

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Jesus did die, as other men do. Moreover Jesus could only raise his body up through the power of God, and at the command of God. In fact no action was required by Jesus after his death, because he had already appropriated the command of God to himself just by laying down his life. (John 10:18).

 

[SLPCCC]

Jesus did die, as other men do. Moreover Jesus could only raise his body up through the power of God, and at the command of God. In fact no action was required by Jesus after his death, because he had already appropriated the command of God to himself just by laying down his life. (John 10:18).

As Jesus says, "I will raise it up. Jesus, in terms of his spirit, did not die. His body die not his spirit. God cannot die.

 

[eik]

As Jesus says, "I will raise it up. Jesus, in terms of his spirit, did not die. His body die not his spirit. God cannot die.

Jesus no different from anyone else, whose spirit "does not die." He died the same way as any other human being.

 

[Riders]

The old testament says Hear oh Israel the Lord thy God is one, in him only shalt thou serve.

I don't have the exact scripture for that because I still have it memorized from my oneness Pentecostal days. But I do agree with my old church still that Constantine chose to Paganize Christianity with the Trinity belief and I also believe he Paganized Christianity with the worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.

 

[YoursTrue]

Exodus 20 2,3 'American Standard Version':

2" I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Amazing that trinitarians can't see the problem this creates for them! Maybe later...like we eventually did, like many Jehovah's Witnesses have done, before we humbly 'wiped the blindness away.' 2 Corinthians 4:4.

I mean, these sheep are also told by Christendom's leaders, it's ok to 'kill your brothers' during conflicts! If their sheep don't question it.... that's the pinnacle of spiritual blindness. IMO. No wonder the Devil temporarily rules the world.

As time goes on, it's becoming clearer and clearer. Thanks.

 

[YoursTrue]

The old testament says Hear oh Israel the Lord thy God is one, in him only shalt thou serve.

I don't have the exact scripture for that because I still have it memorized from my oneness Pentecostal days. But I do agree with my old church still that Constantine chose to Paganize Christianity with the Trinity belief and I also believe he Paganized Christianity with the worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.

Constantine was, believe it or not, baptized by an Arian supporter.
The Jews were commanded to serve one God only, you're right there. Not three in one. The gods of the nations were not the God that spoke to Israel.

 

[Riders]

Constantine was, believe it or not, baptized by an Arian supporter.
The Jews were commanded to serve one God only, you're right there. Not three in one. The gods of the nations were not the God that spoke to Israel.

Arian? Is that connected to the white race?

 

[YoursTrue]

As Jesus says, "I will raise it up. Jesus, in terms of his spirit, did not die. His body die not his spirit. God cannot die.

No part of God dies. Not his hand, his heart, his flesh. That is why Jesus was not "God." He was, however, sent from heaven. And then he...was killed.

 

[YoursTrue]

Arian? Is that connected to the white race?

I don't think so, I am not sure. But the priest who baptized Constantine was a supporter of Arius. Sorry about confusion.

 

[YoursTrue]

The old testament says Hear oh Israel the Lord thy God is one, in him only shalt thou serve.

I don't have the exact scripture for that because I still have it memorized from my oneness Pentecostal days. But I do agree with my old church still that Constantine chose to Paganize Christianity with the Trinity belief and I also believe he Paganized Christianity with the worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.

Further, when God spoke to someone, they weren't confused as to who was speaking. Others could serve Him, but the nation of Israel was to give exclusive devotion to YHWH, known to many in English as Jehovah. Hope this help. The Israelites were under compulsion by virtue of their agreement with the true God at Mount Sinai. The more I look at it, the clearer it becomes.

 

[SLPCCC]

As time goes on, it's becoming clearer and clearer. Thanks.

Let's say you are right. Jesus is not God. You still have to see the fact that:

1. God calls Jesus Mighty God.
2. At John 1:1 the word is God
3. Jesus is prayed to
4. Jesus is worshiped

Therefore, you should call on the name of Jesus in prayer and worship and be saved.

 

[eik]

Arian? Is that connected to the white race?

No, that would be aryan, not arian, although the name aryan is sourced from India, not Europe, and is merely borrowed by certain sects.

 

[eik]

Constantine was, believe it or not, baptized by an Arian supporter.

I agree with what you say. However the situation with arianism became considerably complicated by politics and other factors. Some, such as Marcellus of Ancyra rejected the term homoousios in the Nicene creed, as insisted on by Constantine, not because they were arians, but just because they disliked the introduction of the novel philosophical term "homoousios" as derived from Greek paganism.

 

[1213]

...Do the scriptures teach the trinity or not?

Not really, there is no word trinity in the Bible. It is based on loose interpretation and ignores many parts from the Bible that tell directly that there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus.

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

...the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

 

[Hockeycowboy]

“Proskyneo” is the word the LVV used when Abraham “bowed down” to the sons of Heth, Genesis 23:7.

Was Abraham worshipping the sons of Heth? If we were to accept the Trinitarian definition of proskuneo as meaning *only* worship, then yes, Abraham was worshipping them..
Lol.

No, Abraham was just honoring them, showing respect.

When you mistranslate Greek words used in Scripture, misinterpretations follow.

Why do Trinitarians ascribe to Jesus, what rightly belongs to His Father, whom Jesus Himself called “the ONLY TRUE God”, thereby completely ignoring Exodus 20:1-6?

 

[SLPCCC]

“Proskyneo” is the word the LVV used when Abraham “bowed down” to the sons of Heth, Genesis 23:7.

Was Abraham worshipping the sons of Hetj? If we were to accept the Trinitarian definition of proskenuo, then Abraham was worshipping them..
Lol.

No, Abraham was just honoring them, showing respect.

When you mistranslate Greek words used in Scripture, misinterpretations follow.

Why do Trinitarians ascribe to Jesus, what rightly belongs to His Father, whom Jesus Himself called “the ONLY TRUE God”, thereby completely ignoring Exodus 20:1-6?

First of all, the Hebrew scriptures were first written in Hebrew. Abraham did not speak Greek so proskenuo was not the word used. It was a Hebrew word that means bowed down. The Greek word that was used was in Greek in the new testament which was proskenuo which means worship. Look it up and see for your self.

Second, the WTS translates Proskyneu correctly as worship in other places like Matt. 4:10, John 4:20, and at many many other places. It just plain dishonesty on the part of the JWs bible.