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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

SLPCCC

Active Member
No, refusing to take up arms does not by itself make a religion true. You are right.

But those that do support taking up arms, makes them, false.

That’s what ultimately convinced me to change my religion.

But, in addition....
Most of my family are either Baptist’s or Pentecostals, and they also believe torment in Hellfire.
I’m so glad I’ve learned the truth about Jehovah, the loving God of Jesus!
You keep forgetting that the people who run your religion are not inspired. They can switch on you and say "now we have new light. Those who want to go to war can. It's a conscious decision." Then what are you going to say? I can imagine.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You keep forgetting that the people who run your religion are not inspired. They can switch on you and say "now we have new light. Those who want to go to war can. It's a conscious decision." Then what are you going to say? I can imagine.

Can you honestly say that the majority of Christendom’s churches are obedient to Jesus’ teachings in this issue....what did he say?
Matthew 5:43-48.....
“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

If a “Christian” is a patriot, who puts their politics before their “Christianity”, then they will be convinced that God is on their side...that they are the good guys....this is “just war”....right? Who told them that? Certainly not Jesus, who taught us to be “no part of the world”. Is there wriggle room in this?

Did he say you can kill your enemies if your church tells you that it’s OK with God to do that? Is that how you love them...with bombs and guns?

When Jesus told his apostles to buy swords when the time came for him to be arrested, he rebuked Peter for using one....why?
It was to demonstrate that, even though they had the means, that they would not resort violence even under provocation. He gave no permission to use violence even to defend him from a wrongful arrest. As the son of God, he had legions of angels at his disposal. (Matthew 26:52-53)

In this one issue alone, Christendom disqualifies itself from being obedient to the Christ. They show that in their view, God’s laws must bow to man’s laws....in this, and in other important areas such as acceptance of the trinity, as well as the adoption of other false religious beliefs and festivals, he will judge them as “lawless” ones. (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18) There can be no justification for disobedience. And once you have that clearly explained, there is then no excuse to claim ignorance either.
Choices...it’s all about our choices.

We are all free to believe as we wish....but truthfully, a large number of JW’s have seen the Bible’s clear teachings, and left “Babylon the great” in obedience to God’s command at Revelation 18:4-5. That meant ditching all of Christendom’s false teachings. If you understand the reason why it is called “Babylon the great” you will see the connection and take action.....but only God can open our eyes....do you believe this?
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Not Inspired, Not Spirit Directed
Though the Bible writers made mistakes, they were inspired, so everything they wrote in the Bible was infallible. Therefore, as a body, their decisions, interpretations, and writings were infallible. This is a huge difference with the WT/JWs because when the Holy Spirit directs a person, they do not get it wrong; otherwise, what was the point of the Holy Spirit's direction?

According to The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:

    • Infallible; "Incapable of erring" (therefore to be infallible means to be perfect)
    • Inspire; "to affect, guide, or arouse by divine influence" (or in other words inspired means to be directed by Holy Spirit)
Since the apostles were inspired they were being directed by the Holy Spirit to write infallibly even though they were imperfect. When they wrote the bible, they wrote through the Holy Spirit so the bible is infallible.

The Watchtower is not inspired, therefore, it is logical to conclude that they are not being directed by the Holy Spirit and what they write is fallible. Being inspired = being spirit directed. Being not inspired = not spirit directed.


    • By Definition: Inspired = Directed by Holy Spirit
    • The Bible: Inspired = Directed by Holy Spirit = Infallible (no errors)
    • Watchtower: Not Inspired =/ Not Directed by Holy Spirit = Fallible (contains errors)
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
Can you honestly say that the majority of Christendom’s churches are obedient to Jesus’ teachings in this issue....what did he say?
Matthew 5:43-48.....
“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

If a “Christian” is a patriot, who puts their politics before their “Christianity”, then they will be convinced that God is on their side...that they are the good guys....this is “just war”....right? Who told them that? Certainly not Jesus, who taught us to be “no part of the world”. Is there wriggle room in this?

Did he say you can kill your enemies if your church tells you that it’s OK with God to do that? Is that how you love them...with bombs and guns?

When Jesus told his apostles to buy swords when the time came for him to be arrested, he rebuked Peter for using one....why?
It was to demonstrate that, even though they had the means, that they would not resort violence even under provocation. He gave no permission to use violence even to defend him from a wrongful arrest. As the son of God, he had legions of angels at his disposal. (Matthew 26:52-53)

In this one issue alone, Christendom disqualifies itself from being obedient to the Christ. They show that in their view, God’s laws must bow to man’s laws....in this, and in other important areas such as acceptance of the trinity, as well as the adoption of other false religious beliefs and festivals, he will judge them as “lawless” ones. (Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18) There can be no justification for disobedience. And once you have that clearly explained, there is then no excuse to claim ignorance either.
Choices...it’s all about our choices.

We are all free to believe as we wish....but truthfully, a large number of JW’s have seen the Bible’s clear teachings, and left “Babylon the great” in obedience to God’s command at Revelation 18:4-5. That meant ditching all of Christendom’s false teachings. If you understand the reason why it is called “Babylon the great” you will see the connection and take action.....but only God can open our eyes....do you believe this?

Not all Christians pick up arms and go to war. You guys keep bringing up killings and going to war. And saying that true Christians don't go to war. That's fine but not all Christians pick up arms and go to war.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
This scripture shows that Jesus says if you pray to him and ask him anything, he will do it. Is Jesus God?

John 14: 14 reads,

  • If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

In the word for word translation, it reads this way.

  • 14 ἐάν if ever τι anything αἰτήσητέ YOU should ask με me ἐν in τῷ the ὀνόματί name μου of me τοῦτο this ποιήσω. I shall do.
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
I'd like to ask you a question at this point. I'm not sure if you attend a church or are a member of one. But, it seems to me that the trinity is very close to, if not, something considered by many to be inspired utterance, or divine. You believe, do you, that it's true-- That there are three persons, each said to be equal to the other two, and all of them comprising one God? Oh, and all three always existing, three persons, without beginning, is that right?

I'm actually learning as I go. I'll make my final decision on the trinity when I complete my research. I'm not attached to any religion or organization so I'm not being influenced in any direction but I'm relying on the Holy Spirit. I would like to attend a church but there's not many where I live. For now, I'm following where the research leads me.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
You keep forgetting that the people who run your religion are not inspired. They can switch on you and say "now we have new light. Those who want to go to war can. It's a conscious decision." Then what are you going to say? I can imagine.
Now this is just bordering on the ridiculous.
It will never happen.
(Isaiah 2:2-4 tells us that Jehovah’s worship would become firmly established “in the Last Days,” and that His worshippers would “beat swords into plowshares”.... it’s happening right now..... the worship of Jehovah engenders love and peace. Galatians 5:22-23.

But to answer your question: I would leave in a heartbeat.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@SLPCCC , please if I may, ask you this: what path is Christendom on, that’s getting “brighter and brighter”?

I haven’t found any brighter light they propound.... they’ve been promoting the same old stuff for centuries, including Hellfire.

Do you believe in Hellfire?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I'm actually learning as I go. I'll make my final decision on the trinity when I complete my research...............
I find in a family arrangement the ones that are equal would be the ' triplets '.
I find there are No equals mentioned at 1 Corinthians 11:3 but the headship arrangement. God being the head of Christ.
Doesn't resurrected Jesus think he has a Father and has a God according to John 20:17 ________ see also Revelation 3:12.
Even in the school system there is the headship arrangement:
The teacher is over the pupil, the principal is over the teacher, and the super over the principle. No equals there.
Any comments about what Stephen saw at Acts of the Apostles 7:55-56 B ________________
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I don't think that's a good argument. You never have seen any of those scary movies where the monster turns into liquid or gas and goes through a keyhole to the other side then turns back into a body?
I know of No monster which pours out his holy spirit on others _________
Besides where is God's spirit found according to Job 27:3 ___________
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The problem is a combination of things. Going back and forth on teachings and manipulating the scripture to support their own theology. They are not inspired and infallible to do such things. They change scriptures but suppose they are wrong?? If they were wrong before, they can be wrong again. We are talking about the bible! They have no right to change the bible.
Again wrong guesses or wrong calculations do Not make the Bible as wrong, does Not change the Bible, it just makes the calculation as wrong.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Let me ask you a question. If there was a contradiction between the bible and what a WT magazine says, you would believe the WT magazine instead correct? I'm sure you would because you follow an organization that is not inspired by God.

Ok, you said, “If there was a contradiction between the bible and what a WT magazine says, you would believe the WT magazine instead correct?

Regarding specifics? I’ve never found one. Explanations are always supported by other Scriptures, ie., the context, and sound reasoning.

You never replied about the Comma Johannum, any thoughts?
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There are many other religions besides the JWs who refuse to take up arms. Not taking up arms does not make your religion the true religion.
It means to a large extent, that if you refuse to hurt your fellow man, you are following Jesus.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, refusing to take up arms does not by itself make a religion true. You are right.

But those that do support taking up arms, makes them, false.

That’s what ultimately convinced me to change my religion.

But, in addition....
Most of my family are either Baptist’s or Pentecostals, and they also believe torment in Hellfire.
I’m so glad I’ve learned the truth about Jehovah, the loving God of Jesus!
Me, too. God saved me.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
I don't really understand the relevance of what you just said above. Maybe I missed something.

Tell me. What does Elohim mean?
It has many meanings. It usually means God but it can also be a god, gods, God+gods...

The relevance was my reply to @SLPCCC proving (proto)Trinity (Jesus being called God) from scripture. In some of his examples Jesus isn't even called God e. G. "....glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ ... " Jesus is here just mentioned together with God.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm actually learning as I go. I'll make my final decision on the trinity when I complete my research. I'm not attached to any religion or organization so I'm not being influenced in any direction but I'm relying on the Holy Spirit. I would like to attend a church but there's not many where I live. For now, I'm following where the research leads me.
In my rather humble opinion, you will not find any church that is perfect. If they don't have a 'history,' then they are kind of independent, not associated with a body of theological thought. I find the information produced by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society to be helpful and clear, as well as scholarly. Keep looking.
There were congregations in the early years of Christianity that were upbraided by the apostles, and even the apostles had differences. Therefore, we must choose. Remember the Israelites in the wilderness, they were chastised by God many times..
Now I would like to address a few things about false prophecies. Many have misunderstood or miscalculated time in their zeal. There have been some rather famous preachers and theologians who have foretold the end when it did not come. Therefore, we have to keep the more important things in mind. If you're looking for faults, you're going to find them. In any religion. As far as false prophets go, I do not consider the Witnesses to fill the role of perfection that you are speaking of. But they are about as close to it as a religion has come.
I don't know how you feel about those such as Martin Luther, a well-known name in religion. But he, too, is guilty of predicting that the end of the world would occur centuries ago. He is not alone in these mistaken interpretations.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Since the apostles were inspired they were being directed by the Holy Spirit to write infallibly even though they were imperfect. When they wrote the bible, they wrote through the Holy Spirit so the bible is infallible.

The governing body are not apostles.....they do not write scripture and we do not regard it as such, so you are arguing a strawman.....they are to us "the faithful and discreet slave" appointed by the Master to "feed" his household....he exists and we believe we have found him and feeding at his table has never been a problem...there is nothing to argue with because everything they write is spiritually healthy...unlike what we were fed in Christendom.....I have been on both sides of this fence...have you? I never found the church I grew up in to be anything but hypocritical. They were up to their necks in politics and were even used as recruiting centres for the soldiers going to war.
They still celebrate pagan festivals dressed up as 'Christian' events that had nothing whatever to do with Christ in the first place. They did not adopt the trinity from anything they read in the Bible but from paganism.

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Look familiar? Did you know that these existed?

The Watchtower is not inspired, therefore, it is logical to conclude that they are not being directed by the Holy Spirit and what they write is fallible. Being inspired = being spirit directed. Being not inspired = not spirit directed.

Who said that the Watchtower is inspired? The Watchtower is a Bible Society that prints Bibles and Bible literature. We are not the Watchtower....we are Jehovah's Witnesses. We have 'cleansed and refined' ourselves of all those false doctrines and ideas that an apostate church introduced centuries ago, but Daniel foretold that God's worship would be 'cleansed, whitened and refined' in "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) That is what we believe took place when we broke away from Christendom......we got out of "Babylon the great" as instructed. (Revelation 18:4-5)

Jesus said that he would be "with" his disciples "all the days until the conclusion of the system of things"....that was right after he told them to "Go! and make disciples of people of all the nations" (Matthew 28:19-20)....so even looking at 'the great commission' that he gave for his disciples after his departure, can you tell me why Christendom's churches do not preach (except to the converted who have to come to them, rather than them going out to the people as Jesus and the apostles did)?
He told us to preach "the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth" (Matthew 24:14)....so what is "the good news of the Kingdom"....in all my years growing up in church, I never once heard what that was....I was taught the Lord's Prayer but I never knew what it meant for the Kingdom to "come".......can you tell me what it is? Jehovah's Witnesses were the only ones who could explain it by means of the scriptures.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
It has many meanings. It usually means God but it can also be a god, gods, God+gods...

The relevance was my reply to @SLPCCC proving (proto)Trinity (Jesus being called God) from scripture. In some of his examples Jesus isn't even called God e. G. "....glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ ... " Jesus is here just mentioned together with God.

I meant the meaning of the word Elohim.
 
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