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Featured The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by SLPCCC, Jun 1, 2020.

  1. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Hardly. I don't go along with the Trinity because it does not make sense as it is examined. Talk about extrapolation of the wrong kind -- Jesus said his Father is greater than he is. But because some want to mix it up, they claim that Jesus meant he was not as 'great' as the Father because he was in the flesh. The Bible doesn't say that, neither did Jesus. No matter how I look at it, the Trinity doesn't make sense. Yes, he said he was given authority. What does this mean to me? That he-was-given-authority. Matthew 28:18:Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
    Keep studying, praying, and learning, SLPCCC.
     
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  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Again, before we go into the Greek, just exactly whose throne was it?
     
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  3. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    Hi Deeje, I've been doing some searching in the JW.org site and have found that the Watchtower has claimed to be prophets. At Watchtower 10/1/82 p. 27 it refers to themselves as, "the “prophet” whom Jehovah has raised up has been, not an individual man as in the case of Jeremiah, but a class." At WT 6/15/64, p. 365 it states, "Through this agency, he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it."

    Can you show me where in the bible Jehovah God forgives prophets who make mistakes and speak erroneously in his name? Has God ever forgave a prophet who prophecied falsely or made a mistake because he was an imperfect human?

    How many other things are they speaking in Jehovah's name and are wrong!
    I'll respond to your other questions when I get a chance.
     
  4. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I accept Michael as another name for Jesus, but in a different aspect of his person. Putting the scriptures together, for me it makes sense.
    It has already been explained rather well here by others that the word or designation 'God' (elohim) is applied in various circumstances. Perhaps in time you will come to a better understanding of this. I hope so. I just know if I heard Thomas say to Jesus (the resurrected Jesus), "My Lord and my God!" I would be happy that Thomas came to the realization after he doubted Jesus had been raised from the dead that Jesus was now a very powerful person alive miraculously. He was clearly astounded. I would have no problem with him saying that if I were there. In fact, I would be happy for Thomas that he finally realized Jesus as his head and superior. But I would also know (and I believe Thomas knew that, too even though the Bible does not say it) that there was One more powerful in heaven than Jesus, Jesus said he was going there. The Trinity doctrine just-isn't-true. Obviously you can believe it if you want to. Similarly, there are those who pray to Mary and saints, despite the direction Jesus gave about how to pray. The Judge will decide. But I have made up my mind. I encourage you to keep studying, and praying, and have an open mind.
     
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  5. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    We are now talking about the upcoming battle of Armageddon. There have been some influential men who wrongly believed the date Armageddon was coming. Or, perhaps, the return of Christ. Frankly, and after studying these things in as much depth as I could, I have determined for myself that there have been those begotten by holy spirit who proclaimed the Lord's coming and made mistakes. This does not deter me from learning from those I consider to have the right attitude and inclination to and from God, the Almighty, by means of His Son, Christ Jesus, now ruling in heaven. And will be so, until he turns over everything to his God and Father. It's kind of a hard lesson for some to learn, I suppose.
     
  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Nathan, telling David to build a house to Jehovah. (2 Samuel 7:1-5) But that was not what Jehovah wanted....

    Solomon, after he grew up, recounted that event: “17Now it was in the heart of David my father to build a house for the name of Jehovah, the God of Israel. 18But Jehovah said unto David my father, Whereas it was in thy heart to build a house for my name, thou didst well that it was in thy heart: 19nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house for my name.” 1 Kings 8 17-19

    Jehovah still used Nathan. Why? Because his heart was in the right place, supporting and promoting Jehovah’s worship.
     
  7. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    The above is not prophesying

    • Deuteronomy 18: 20 - 22 Any prophet who arrogantly speaks a word in my name that I haven't commanded him to speak, . . . that prophet must die. Now, you might be wondering, How will we know which word God hasn't spoken? Here's the answer: The prophet who speaks in the LORD's name and the thing doesn't happen or come aboutthat's the word the LORD hasn't spoken. That prophet spoke arrogantly. Don't be afraid of him.

    JW-Unfulfilled-Prophecies.jpg

    I found this doing research. The above shows a list of errors. I don't understand how one can have faith in what they teach with so many prophetic mistakes.
     
    #667 SLPCCC, Jun 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  8. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I'd like to ask you a question at this point. I'm not sure if you attend a church or are a member of one. But, it seems to me that the trinity is very close to, if not, something considered by many to be inspired utterance, or divine. You believe, do you, that it's true-- That there are three persons, each said to be equal to the other two, and all of them comprising one God? Oh, and all three always existing, three persons, without beginning, is that right?
     
  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @SLPCCC , you said:
    Nathan “made a mistake”....he ‘spoke erroneously in his name.’

    Speaking of “his name”.....you’ve accused the WT of ‘changing the Bible’ (I think), but you’re ok with Christendom taking the Divine Name out over 6800 times, replacing it with “Lord”? That just leads to confusion...and obscuring Who God really is. (Psalms 110:1 & Psalms 8 1,9 are good examples) Which person, do you think, is ultimately behind such alterations of God’s Word?

    Have you ever heard of the Comma Johannum? (Something trinitarian translators tried to get away with.)
    I hope you don’t want to align yourself with those who have been documented to willfully “add to the words of this scroll”!



    How important is it to obey Jesus?
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    These quotes are are taken from old Watchtowers of 1982 and even back to 1964, so unless you have something recent, we might have clarified quite a few things since then. I have explained about this already.
    If you had bothered to read the articles that contained those sentences which were taken out of context, you would find that we have not claimed to be "prophets" at all. Did you really find them on JW.ORG or was it on an anti-JW site? (just wondering)

    In the 1982 article it speaks of those who will come through the great tribulation that results in the battle of Armageddon, it states..."Jeremiah was to perform the part of a full-grown man, for what his God inspired him to write was to be of importance to all mankind, even today. A “prophet to the nations” is what Jehovah made him. (Jeremiah 1:5) Now today, if anything, there needs to be a “prophet to the nations,” as patriotic self-willed nations are being inexorably gathered to an all-deciding showdown at Har–Magedon. . . .

    In behalf of such right-hearted individuals Jehovah has considerately raised up his “prophet to the nations.” Jehovah has done this during this “time of the end,” since World War I ended on November 11, 1918.—Daniel 12:4.

    8 In behalf of such individuals who at heart seek God’s rule instead of man’s rule, the “prophet” whom Jehovah has raised up has been, not an individual man as in the case of Jeremiah, but a class. The members of this class are, like the prophet-priest Jeremiah, wholly dedicated to Jehovah God through Christ and, by the begettal of Jehovah’s holy spirit, they have been made part of “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession. (1 Peter 2:9)"


    These are not "prophets" in the sense of proclaiming something new, but taking on a role like Jeremiah in these last days. The prophesy is the one Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 concerning "the sign of his presence and the end of the age". And in the Revelation concerning the final war on wickedness. Jeremiah had to boldly declare God's judgment messages on the faithless nation of Israel, so the "Jeremiah class" boldly expose Christendom as the weeds of Jesus' parable who do not prepare their flocks for the coming "great tribulation" on earth....the final showdown between God and the devil....between the forces of Good against the forces of evil are drawing ever closer. We already know the outcome.

    In the article from 1962 it states....

    "The Kingdom’s establishment was the signal for a tremendous increase of revealed truth to be dispensed to Jehovah’s people on earth. With the King’s enthronement came the issuing of a continuous flow of instructions to obedient subjects of that kingdom in order to clarify their understanding on doctrine and procedure. A constant supply of progressively unsealed truths was assured. This is pictured at Revelation 5:1 to 8:1.


    21 Centuries earlier Isaiah had foretold this flow of truth: “And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.’ For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. . . . O men of the house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of Jehovah.”
    Isa. 2:3-5

    22 As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it. The abundance of spiritual food and the amazing details of Jehovah’s purposes that have been revealed to Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are clear evidence that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a “faithful and discreet slave” class that would be used to dispense God’s progressive revelations in these last days. Of this class Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.Matt. 24:47."

    Do you know what an agency is? It is a representative of someone, in this case the ones carrying out the proclamation are not prophets but heralds. The prophesy belongs to Jesus Christ and his disciples were told to take it to the people. "The faithful and wise slave" are on earth still proclaiming the coming of God's Kingdom and warning about the coming judgment.

    Since you seem bound and determined to seek ways to find fault, I will let you run away with your ideas, but ask you please to consider John 15:18-21. If Jesus warned that his disciples would be "hated by the world" for doing what Christ did, then you would not expect them to receive good press, now would you? Jesus and his disciples were hated and persecuted by those who were members of their own faith.....

    The "wheat" were to be completely separate from the "weeds" at the harvest time, in Jesus parable....so look for the difference, not the similarity.....look for the ones peacefully preaching about God's Kingdom....Christendom has no idea what it is.
     
    #670 Deeje, Jun 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    There have been no prophetic mistakes....misjudgments in timing perhaps, but even the apostles got that wrong.

    Gathered together as Christ was about to ascend to heaven....
    "So when they had gathered together, they began to ask him, “Lord, is this the time when you are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6) Taught by Christ himself, these who would make up Christ's fellow rulers in heaven, mistakenly thought that the Kingdom was coming there and then.
     
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  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Since enlightenment of God Word comes from the Father (Luke 10:21), wouldn’t it be wise to obey His Son? Especially, even more so, if they think He is God?


    The vast majority of Christendom — denominations I mean, most of whom are Trinitarian — while claiming obedience to Christ (who commanded His followers to 'love their brothers' - John 13:34-35), have killed their brothers during worldly conflicts, supporting nationalism over their spiritual brotherhood. Titus 1:16 applies to them.

    In fact, Christians shouldn’t be involved in killing anyone. There is never justification for planned killing. — Matthew 5:44

    Am I exaggerating Christendom’s participation in wars? I don’t think so....

    Catholic historian E. I. Watkin acknowledged: “Painful as the admission must be, we cannot in the interest of a false edification or dishonest loyalty deny or ignore the historical fact that Bishops have consistently supported all wars waged by the government of their country. I do not know in fact of a single instance in which a national hierarchy has condemned as unjust any war . . . Whatever the official theory, in practice ‘my country always right’ has been the maxim followed in wartime by Catholic Bishops.”

    *********
    Protestant clergyman Harry Emerson Fosdick admitted: “Even in our churches we have put the battle flags . . . With one corner of our mouth we have praised the Prince of Peace and with the other we have glorified war.”

    *********
    Columnist Mike Royko of the Chicago Tribune wrote: "Nor have Christians ever been squeamish about waging wars on other Christians. If they had been, most of the liveliest wars in Europe would never have occurred.”

    *********
    Anne Fremantle wrote in the book Age of Faith: “Of all the wars men have waged, none have been more zealously undertaken than those on behalf of a faith. And of these ‘holy wars,’ none have been bloodier and more protracted than the Christian Crusades of the Middle Ages.”
    ********************
    (I can provide more references.)


    Jesus stated @ Matthew 7 18, “By their fruits you will recognize them.” In vss 21-23, Jesus even said He would deny those doing “powerful works” in his name.

    The Apostle John, @ 1 John 3:10-15 (NIV), was imo even more forceful:
    “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

    “For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.”



    My point is, if they’re willfully disobedient, should you expect them to have Scriptural enlightenment? Should you trust their theology?

    It’s strong language, but hope it will reach your heart.
     
    #672 Hockeycowboy, Jun 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
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  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Interesting how, in the first bullet point, you equate the Father as “God”. Because Romans 10:9 doesn’t say “the Father.” Only “God.” (I thought you believed all three were god?)

    Now, let’s take the 2nd bullet...did Jesus mean that he would literally raise himself from death?
    Really, how could he, if “the dead know nothing”? (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Well, let’s see how we can understand what Jesus was saying....
    Remember when Jesus healed the woman with the continual flow of blood? The account is found in 3 of the Gospels; at Matthew 9:20-22, Mark 5:25-34, Luke 8:43-48. What healed that woman, according to Jesus’ own words? He said her faith made her well.
    Wasn’t it literally power from God that healed her? Of course! But if she hadn’t had faith, she wouldn’t have gotten healed. Ultimately, it rested on her.
    The same with Jesus....he had so much faith in His God, that he knew that he was going to be resurrected. But ultimately, like w/ the lady, it hinged on His faith. His faith in that sense resurrected him.

    The 3rd bullet, later.

    Goodnight.
     
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  14. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    It says. "God raised him from the dead." Who else could it be?

    Read what the scripture is saying. "I will raise it up." . . . he was speaking about the temple of his body.

    Never mind the trinity at this point. The point is on what he said in the scripture.

    The JWs are the ones who don't follow Jesus, sad to say, they follow an organization that keeps making mistakes and corrections misusing Proverbs 4:18 which they quote to give them carte blanche to change any doctrine they see fit, claiming that they have ‘new light’ from Jehovah. Proverb 4:18 is not a prophecy. Read the whole chapter. What is it talking about?

    Proverbs chapter 4 is discussing behavior, as is easily identifiable when reading the entire chapter in context. The verses surrounding 18 state: "… the wicked do not sleep unless they do badness. … The way of the wicked ones is like the gloom; they have not known at what they keep stumbling … listen to the discipline of a father … keep my commandments … safeguard your heart." The WT takes it out of context and calls it a prophecy to justified the errors.

    Let me ask you a question. If there was a contradiction between the bible and what a WT magazine says, you would believe the WT magazine instead correct? I'm sure you would because you follow an organization that is not inspired by God.


     
    #674 SLPCCC, Jun 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  15. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    There are many other religions besides the JWs who refuse to take up arms. Not taking up arms does not make your religion the true religion.
     
  16. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    You keep equating the mistakes of the apostles with the WT. This is not a question of individual early Christians or Jehovah's Witnesses being perfect or holding to a perfect understanding of doctrine. The issue is whether the Governing Body operates under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as a collective group, after prayer. "What percentage of the Apostles' writings in the Bible are wrong?" Zero percent because they are inspired by God. "What percentage of Watchtower statements has been wrong?" Many because they are not inspired by God. That's the point.

    Does Jehovah direct what appears in the Watchtower journals? Obviously not, since so much has been wrong. Rather than suggesting that Apostles made mistakes consider the Apostles were directed by God and what they wrote are inspired, the Governing Body is not directed by God what they write is not inspired.
     
    #676 SLPCCC, Jun 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I don't really understand the relevance of what you just said above. Maybe I missed something.

    Tell me. What does Elohim mean?
     
  18. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    Since the Watchtower Governing Body is unlike the Apostles and not directed by God when arriving at doctrine, they should not be followed blindly, without question. To be eager does not justify being totally wrong. Many religions are eager, without relying on false predictions to motivate their members.

    Rather than indicate that doctrine would get brighter or change, the Bible warns against anyone that promotes false doctrine.
    • 1 John 4:1 "Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God because many false prophets have gone forth into the world."

    The concept of light becoming brighter implies that previous doctrine was correct but incomplete. The Watchtower Society has promoted many significant doctrines that were later discarded as incorrect such as those dates mentioned earlier. These were not clarifications - these were wrong teachings. How many wrong teachings did God allow to become part of the Bible canon?

    Plus, Proverbs chapter 4 is discussing behavior. It is not a prophecy saying that some uninspired organization will be getting doctrine little by little and their understanding will be getting clearer and clearer.
     
    #678 SLPCCC, Jun 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  19. SLPCCC

    SLPCCC Active Member

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    I'll lookout for more recent information.
     
  20. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, refusing to take up arms does not by itself make a religion true. You are right.

    But those that do support taking up arms, makes them, false.

    That’s what ultimately convinced me to change my religion.

    But, in addition....
    Most of my family are either Baptist’s or Pentecostals, and they also believe torment in Hellfire.
    I’m so glad I’ve learned the truth about Jehovah, the loving God of Jesus!
     
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