The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction

[SpiritualSon]

That the whole Christian theology at this day is founded on an idea of three Gods, is evident from the doctrine of justification, which is the head of the doctrines of the church with Christians, both among Roman Catholics and Protestants.

That doctrine sets forth that God the Father sent His Son to redeem and save men,and give the Holy Spirit to operate the same.Every man who hears, reads, or repeats this, cannot but in his thought, that is, in his idea, divide God into three, and perceive that one God sent another, and operates by a third.

That the same thought of a Divine Trinity distinguished into three Persons, each whereof is God, is continued throughout the rest of the doctrinals of the present church, as from a head into its body, will be demonstrated in its proper place.

In the meantime consult what has been premised concerning justification, consult theology in general and in particular, and at the same time, consult yourself,while listening to preachings in temples, or while praying at home, whether you have any other perception and thought resulting than of three Gods.

Especially while you are praying or singing first to one, and then to the other two separately, as is often done. Hence is established the truth of the proposition, that the whole theology in the Christian world at this day, is founded on an idea of three Gods.

The idea that there was a trinity of three Divine persons before creation contradicts the saying of Jehovah God in the Old Testament.

Harry

 

[Ceridwen018]

Harry,

There are separate threads for debating the trinity of god, Jesus, and the holy spirit. This is not one of them. I am sorry if the word 'trinity' in the title is misleading for you, but perhaps you should read the first post in order to get a better bearing on the purpose of this discussion.

 

[quick]

The ultimate end of God and his creation is greater glory and fellowship--in fact, there is no reason for the plural but unified God (the trinity) to create man in his image but to create greater glory and fellowship. Real fellowship cannot exist without free moral choice, and there is the source of our problem.

Glory cannot exist without struggle; struggle would not exist but for evil, so while God did not create evil, his creation who possessed a free moral choice chose evil, which we know already existed when man was created. One of God's heavenly host, also possessing such free moral choice and being jealous of God, chose evil and was banished. He tempted man, God's new creation, and was successful .

God's ultimate plan will be to the greater glory of his creation, so when good does triumph over evil, we will all be the greater for it, as we have overcome evil through God's grace and power, and will recognize and relish this final outcome.

There is no question that this is a difficult issue. I plan to ask for a better explanation when I met God personally and face to face, just as Paul suggests in 1st Corinthians 13:

10But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Real fellowship cannot exist without free moral choice, and there is the source of our problem.

If it is impossible for real fellowship to exist without free moral choice, then God is not all-powerful, because there are some things He can't do. The Trinity stands.

Glory cannot exist without struggle; struggle would not exist but for evil,

If God is all-powerful, Glory can exist without struggle. And if God wills evil indirectly because it is the only way to acheive glory, he is still not all good (destroying evil is not his number one priority). The Trinity stands.

so while God did not create evil, his creation who possessed a free moral choice chose evil

Of course, God gave his creation free will in the first place, and also He knew ahead of time what his creation would do with that free will. God also knew how to prevent this evil from happening. Since God didn't take the necessary action to prevent this from happening, He is not all good. Either that, or He didn't realize what would happen, so He is not all-powerful. Either way, the Trinity stands.

The fact is, this is only a difficult issue if you insist the following three must all be true: 1. Evil exists 2. God is all powerful 3. God is all good (wants evil/suffering to not exist above all else)

If you have an open mind and admit that not all three of these must be simultaneously true, then it is not such a difficult problem after all--the solution is simple: not all three statements can simultaneously be true. I really wish one of you religious people would just admit this.... :killme:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is plain from the first chapter of Genesis that everything created by God was good. It says there that 'God saw that it was good' (verses 10, 12, 18, 21, 25), and at the end 'God saw everything that He made, and behold, it was very good' (verse 31).

It is also plain ...

Compare to ...

It is plain from the first chapter of Genesis that everything created by God was good. It says there that 'God saw that it was good' (verses 10, 12, 18, 21, 25), and at the end 'God saw everything that He made, and behold, it was very good' (verse 31). It is also plain ...

- see Swedenborg Cult Drivel

Maybe it's just me, but I find plagiarism to be the most pathetic form of dishonesty. Kids are thrown out of school for less.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Spiritual Son, isn't it against the forum rules to simply copy and paste different parts of a religious document ALL the time, whether or not it's relevant to the thread topic?

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

Correct me if I'm wrong here... but isn't God's job ultimately to look out for humans and do what's in their best interest? So let's think of this in two ways...

-God does not WANT evil to exist. the WANT part of this is big. But maybe it needs to. Perhaps it is in the best interest of humans to have evil in the world. Evil causes pain and strife, and maybe that's one of the only ways to get us to understand some things. And I dunno but y'all, but the evil in this world most certainly helps me to appreciate the good in this world. which may be what God's going for. or maybe im just nuts here.

- perhaps evil does not exist. what we percieve as evil may just be less good, if that makes sense. in all things there is a level of goodness. some things have a very high level of goodness. While others are dwindling. makin sense to anyone but me?

 

[Ceridwen018]

teapot,

I see what you're saying here. Evil in the world also helps me to appreciate the good. However, if god were all powerful, he could create a world without evil that we could still appreciate. Basically, if god were all powerful, he could find ways to teach us our life lessons without the use of evil. Evil is unecessary, except to make the soap opera of our lives a more interesting program for god's Tuesday afternoons.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

ceridwen -

if there are other ways to make us appreciate and experience the good, what are they? Seems like a lot of 'what ifs' for such a logical thinker. As god looks out for out best interest, evil very well may be the best way for us to experience His goodness.

 

[Ceridwen018]

haha! Logical thinking is all about the 'what if's'!

Seriously though, as far as thinking up an alternative for how we can be made to appreciate the good, I can't. However, just because I can't fathom a way doesn't rule out my argument. One could write a book on all of the unfathomable things that the church accepts as truth. This would just be another one.

If god thinks that the best way for people to live is through experiencing evil, then I truly want nothing to do with him.

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

haha! Logical thinking is all about the 'what if's'!

Seriously though, as far as thinking up an alternative for how we can be made to appreciate the good, I can't. However, just because I can't fathom a way doesn't rule out my argument. One could write a book on all of the unfathomable things that the church accepts as truth. This would just be another one.

If god thinks that the best way for people to live is through experiencing evil, then I truly want nothing to do with him.

Ceridwen, I didn't realize you had anything to do with Him as is. As for not being able to fathom things, you basically do not believe god exists. Many beleive that we cannot fathom god's full existence. It seems you accept things that you can't understand when it suits your circumstance. So if you can't rule out your argument, why have you ruled out the argument that god exists? Maybe we cannot fathom these three things existing because it is beyond human comprehension.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

teapot, your logic is humorous. We might as well believe the Earth is flat.

"I can't even fathom how the Earth is flat, when all the evidence indicates it is round...."

"Of course, silly--it's beyond our comprehension!"

:lol:

 

[Runt]

There are three basic truths which are shared by almost all religions and faiths:

- god is all powerful
- evil exists in the world
- god does not want evil to exist

Obviously, all three of these truths cannot simultaneously exist.

Ah yes, I have been arguing with some of my Christian comparative religion classmates about this for months. My conclusion however was not that there is no God, but that God cannot possibly be purely good but rather must be good AND evil (and since those are opposites they nullify one another and therefore God is neither... God just is).

My logic... if we first believe that there is something in the universe that is all-powerful then in theory it would have no limitations or weaknesses whatsoever. If we also believe that evil is REAL (I personally think it is more of an illusion, but that is just me) and exists in the world, then we must therefore assume that this all powerful God WANTS evil to exist, because otherwise it could have simply (A) never created evil or (B) immediatly wished it out of being.

Here is where most of my super-religious peers and I start arguing. They all insist that "God is good, God is great, loving, gentle, yaddy yaddy yadda" and any other positive adjective we can conceive of, and therefore CANNOT possibly WANT evil to exist.

So I ask them, "Yet evil DOES exist, does it not?"

They nod their little heads and say, "Yes, Satan is trying to tempt you this very moment!"

So I ask them why, if God is all powerful and does not want evil to exist, Satan is able to be a continuing presence in the world.

They scratch their heads and--Oh my God, I think they might be actually THINKING something!--they finally come up with a reason, and I can tell they think it is brilliant, bullet-proof, and still perfectly Christian.

"Evil exists because without evil goodness would have no meaning and would not exist," they say.

I nod with a smile. "And if goodness had no meaning then God, who you believe to be good, would not exist, would he?"

They don't realize they're about to fall into The Trap and they say, "Yes, this is true. Without evil good could not exist. Without Satan God could not exist."

Bam! They're mine. "So... you are saying that God's existence depends upon evil? But... that means God is limited, God is weak! God NEEDS something else to exist, God CANNOT carry out his will! Therefore, God is not all-powerful. So what do we have now?"

They sulk and go back to reading their Bibles.

I log onto religiousforums.com.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

:lol:

Yes, Runt, your analysis fits into the "Trinity" we have stated here. You have said that, assuming the first two statements are true, the third statement (god being all good) must not be true. I completely agree, as not all three statements can be true simultaneously.

Most Christians/theists ALREADY agree with this "trinity" but don't even realize it.....I talked about this idea with a lot of teachers and friends at my school (including my theology teachers) and they have all (eventually) conceeded this point.

Here's a question to ask your classmates, Runt: can God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift? Whether the answer is 'yes' or 'no', either way God is not all-powerful! :lol:

 

[Runt]

can God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift? Whether the answer is 'yes' or 'no', either way God is not all-powerful!

Awesome! I'll do that... if I ever see them again (I've graduated, yay!) Wait, what am I talking about? I'll surely run into TONS of people who share their opinions... they are everywhere! *memorizes fun rock comment*

 

[Ceridwen018]

Spinkles that is genius! And I'm in quite the argumentative mood tonight...'Mom? Where are you?...'

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

See here's my question... do we know God exists in a human physical form so that he can lift the rock? Why is 'all - powerful' automatically associated with human strength? Just because we are made in his image doesnt mean his form is the exact same. I'm going to guess that Spinkles or Ceridwen will say 'well if he can't change what form he exists in he's not all powerful'. The problem here is that since you don't believe in God, you are thinking of His power in a human physical form, and not in His way. God is not physical. He is so far beyond and above us that it is not for us to understand. That's why it's called 'faith' and why most Christians don't need 'proof.' Giving up the fact that we are not all powerful and there is something greater than us causes us to believe that this 'trinity' exists.

 

[Ceridwen018]

teapot,

Associate it with anything ya want. If he can't do it, that's cool.

As far as 'faith' goes, I have just been inspired to start a new thread!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

teapot-- the "it doesn't make any sense only because we are not smart enough to understand it" argument is only useful if your aim is to control people rather than seek the truth.

It might surprise you to know that goblins infest my closet. I know it doesn't make total sense...that's why it's called 'faith' and I don't need 'proof'. These goblins are something beyond our understanding....of course, I KNOW they exist...it's just when it comes to the fact that it's totally illogical well....they're beyond our understanding.... :lol:

Also, you are still admitting God is not all-powerful....you have simply changed the definition of "ALL powerful".

 

[teapot_tall_and_yummy]

Mr. Spinkles -

There are not people dying the the name of your goblins. People aren't being persecuted for believing in your goblins. so its a teeny bit different.

And who says I changed the definition? Maybe you didn't understand God's all-powerful ness from the start.