The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction

[SpiritualSon]

Harry,

Ok, I am sorry, but I'm getting a little tired of this. That last post had absolutely nothing to do with anything ever mentioned in this thread at all. If you want to preach, please do so in the thread about the New Church which you created for that exact purpose. Here, we are interested in debating. Everyone already knows what your opinion, (excuse me, 'truth'), on pretty much everything is, so if you could cut the crap and get down to business answering our simple questions, that would be grand.

Are you one of those thou knoweth all Catholics who thinks their church has all the answers or one of those thou knoweth all Fundamentalist who think they church has all the answers also. Both churches are fill with contradictions and speculations.

I don't see you leaving any replies in the thread about the New Church. That's why I created in the Christianity forum "The Truth About God" because no one was leaving any replies,and yet people here are all over the Christianity forum posting their foolish ideas about God.

I been banned by many Catholic and Protestant Fundamentalist boards,and yet the Fundamentalist on Catholic board are allow to bash Mary and praying to the saints,and never get banned. The Catholics who were once Protestants are the worse. I don't see how they can defend a church that has contradictions.

Harry

 

[Ceridwen018]

SpiritualSon,

I think it's highly entertaining that you condemn me for thinking I 'have all the answers', and then finish your post with the mention of your thread 'The Truth About God', as well as a statement calling other people's beliefs 'foolish'. (Truth be told, I am an atheist, by the by)

Do you wanna know why no one visits the 'New Church' thread? Because we already know what's in it from talking to you on debate threads. However, this is NOT the place for you to post your doctrine. It is the place for you to prove it by using LOGIC and REASONING. If you can't do that, then you can go back to the specialized religion threads and debate the spiritual properties of air or whatever they talk about in there.

I am sorry if you are offended by my sarcasm, but you just don't seem to be getting it. Think about this: If you were to present a solid case for your religion and impress people here on the outside by effectively answering their questions, it would make us all a lot more interested in reading about your doctrine, which will hopefully be exclusively located in the specialized religion thread from now on.

 

[SpiritualSon]

SpiritualSon,

I think it's highly entertaining that you condemn me for thinking I 'have all the answers', and then finish your post with the mention of your thread 'The Truth About God', as well as a statement calling other people's beliefs 'foolish'. (Truth be told, I am an atheist, by the by)

Do you wanna know why no one visits the 'New Church' thread? Because we already know what's in it from talking to you on debate threads. However, this is NOT the place for you to post your doctrine. It is the place for you to prove it by using LOGIC and REASONING. If you can't do that, then you can go back to the specialized religion threads and debate the spiritual properties of air or whatever they talk about in there.

I am sorry if you are offended by my sarcasm, but you just don't seem to be getting it. Think about this: If you were to present a solid case for your religion and impress people here on the outside by effectively answering their questions, it would make us all a lot more interested in reading about your doctrine, which will hopefully be exclusively located in the specialized religion thread from now on.

I am trying to prove that there is a God,and that He one in Person and in Essence,which you don't believe.

To those who don't believe in God no explanation is possible,and those who believe in God, no explanation is needed.

You must think that man and beast are the same, that they both die,and are no more,and that the difference between man and beast is that the man talks and the beast makes sounds.

The only difference between man and beast is that the man has a will and understanding,an animal has not. A will to love,and an understanding to see the truth.Because man has a will and understanding he lives after death.

Harry

 

[Ceridwen018]

Spiritual Son,

To those who don't believe in God no explanation is possible,and those who believe in God, no explanation is needed.

So you're telling me here, that you're pretty much betting your life on something that you can't even explain? I am sorry that I cannot put this more delicately, but that sounds pretty gullible to me. For those who already believe in god, no explanation is needed because they don't ask for one-- not because they already have the answers.

You must think that man and beast are the same, that they both die,and are no more,and that the difference between man and beast is that the man talks and the beast makes sounds.

The only difference between man and beast is that the man has a will and understanding,an animal has not. A will to love,and an understanding to see the truth.Because man has a will and understanding he lives after death.

Yes, I do believe that man and beast are basically the same-- the only major difference being in the evolution of our brains. How does being smarter warrant us a ticket to heaven? This is a prime example of the superiority complex that humans have over other animals. We just cannot accept that we're not all that different.

Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:53 am Post subject:

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Ceridwen018 wrote: › Select ›‹ Expand
SpiritualSon,

I think it's highly entertaining that you condemn me for thinking I 'have all the answers', and then finish your post with the mention of your thread 'The Truth About God', as well as a statement calling other people's beliefs 'foolish'. (Truth be told, I am an atheist, by the by)

Do you wanna know why no one visits the 'New Church' thread? Because we already know what's in it from talking to you on debate threads. However, this is NOT the place for you to post your doctrine. It is the place for you to prove it by using LOGIC and REASONING. If you can't do that, then you can go back to the specialized religion threads and debate the spiritual properties of air or whatever they talk about in there.

I am sorry if you are offended by my sarcasm, but you just don't seem to be getting it. Think about this: If you were to present a solid case for your religion and impress people here on the outside by effectively answering their questions, it would make us all a lot more interested in reading about your doctrine, which will hopefully be exclusively located in the specialized religion thread from now on.

I am trying to prove that there is a God,and that He one in Person and in Essence,which you don't believe.

You cannot prove something by using the document which says it is true. Therefore, you cannot prove what you are trying to prove by using the Bible. Alaric mentioned that earlier: circular reasoning. Anyway, that is not the issue here. Debate that in your "Truth about God" thread.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Whoa, ok, that last post did something crazy and I don't know what it was. Ignore that middle part and you'll be ok to go.

 

[theghostinthemachine]

There are three basic truths which are shared by almost all religions and faiths:

- god is all powerful
- evil exists in the world
- god does not want evil to exist

Obviously, all three of these truths cannot simultaneously exist. If god were all powerful, and opposed to evil, he could simply do away with it. If he was against evil, and yet evil still existed, he would not be all powerful. Two of these statements can be true, but not all three.

Soooo, what's your take?

Hello Ceridwen018,

I'm a presuppositionalist, so my first point would be to question whether or not your worldview can account for any meaningful talk of evil. But aside from that, all three premises can be true (and I think are true).

(i) God is all powerful (omnipotent)
(ii) Evil exists in the world.
(iii) God does not want evil in the world.

It is not a *necessary truth* that if God were all powerful and wanted to do away with evil, that God could. Evil may be a necessary condition for free will; evil being the privation of good. Thus, God may not want evil in the world, but it cannot be avoided. And along the same lines, God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil, so that evil, while not wanted, is nonetheless needed to attain a greater good.

Your response may be, "Well, God is omnipotent, he could prevent evil." Of course, the burden would be on you to demonstrate such a claim. Alvin Plantinga demonstrated in God, Freedom, and Evil that even for an omnipotent being, *all* evil cannot be prevented. At any rate, there does not appear to be a problem of evil - at least not a logical problem of evil.

~ theghostinthemachine

 

[Mr Spinkles]

theghostinthemachine--

If evil is unavoidable--even for God--to acheive a greater good, then God is not *all* powerful (he's just *very* powerful). According to your argument, there are certain laws of logic (ie that evil cannot be destroyed without taking away free will or compromising some sort of 'greater good') that are superior and more powerful than God is, and God can't change them. If God were all-powerful, He could do things that were illogical, since God could decide what is or isn't logical. Therefore if God cannot destroy evil without compromising free will/some other good, then God is not *all* powerful.

The 'Trinity' stands! arty:

 

[SpiritualSon]

theghostinthemachine--

If evil is unavoidable--even for God--to acheive a greater good, then God is not *all* powerful (he's just *very* powerful). According to your argument, there are certain laws of logic (ie that evil cannot be destroyed without taking away free will or compromising some sort of 'greater good') that are superior and more powerful than God is, and God can't change them. If God were all-powerful, He could do things that were illogical, since God could decide what is or isn't logical. Therefore if God cannot destroy evil without compromising free will/some other good, then God is not *all* powerful.

The 'Trinity' stands! arty:

No evil that a man thinks is imputed to him, because he was so created as to be able to understand and think either good or evil - good from the Lord and evil from hell - for he is between these two, and from his freedom of choice in spiritual things has the ability to choose either one or the other.

The fact that two trees, one of life and one of the knowledge of good and evil, were put in the Garden of Eden, means that man was given free will in spiritual matters.

Many people have believed that by Adam and Eve in the book of Moses are not meant the first human beings to be created, and in support of this view they have employed proofs that there were people before Adam, drawn from computations and chronologies preserved by some peoples. It is also supported by what Cain, Adam's firstborn, said to Jehovah:

I shall be a wanderer, driven to and fro on the earth, so that anyone meeting me will kill me. For which reason Jehovah set a mark on Cain, that anyone meeting him should not kill him. Gen. 4:14, 15.

And after he went from before the face of Jehovah, he dwelt in the land of Nod, and built a city. Gen. 4:16, 17.

This means that the earth was inhabited by people before before Adam.

Adam and his wife mean the most ancient church on this earth. The Garden of Eden means the wisdom of the people in that church, the tree of life means the Lord being in man and man being in the Lord, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil means man not being in the Lord but immersed in his own self (proprium), as is everyone who believes that he does everything, even good, of himself. Eating from this tree means making evil one's own.

Harry

 

[SpiritualSon]

Mr_Spinkles

Man will not live by God's Divine Order if freedom of choice were taken away from him.These are called laws of permission. God does not will the evils man does from freedom of choice. Permission to choose evil is given to the end that good may take its place.

Man was created a form of Divine order. Man was created a form of Divine order because he was created an image and likeness of God.As God is order itself, he was created an image and likeness of order.

There are two things which are the source of order and which give it permanence, namely, the Divine love and the Divine wisdom, and man was created a receptacle of these, and was therefore created also into the order in accordance with which these two act in the universe, and especially in accordance with which they act in the angelic heaven.

Consequently that the entire heaven is in its largest effigy a form of Divine order, and is in the sight of God like one man. Moreover, there is a plenary correspondence between that heaven and man.

From the Divine Omnipotence man has power over evil and falsity, and from the Divine Omniscience has wisdom respecting what is good and true, and from the Divine Omnipresence is in God, just to the extent that he lives in accordance with Divine order.

It is from the Divine omnipotence that man has power over evil and falsity just to the extent that he lives in accordance with Divine order from freedom of choice.

Harry

 

[SpiritualSon]

Harry,

Ok, I am sorry, but I'm getting a little tired of this. That last post had absolutely nothing to do with anything ever mentioned in this thread at all. If you want to preach, please do so in the thread about the New Church which you created for that exact purpose. Here, we are interested in debating. Everyone already knows what your opinion, (excuse me, 'truth'), on pretty much everything is, so if you could cut the crap and get down to business answering our simple questions, that would be grand.

:drink: arty: :drink: arty: :drink: arty: :drink: arty: :drink: arty: :drink: arty: :drink: arty: :drink: arty: :drink:

 

[true blood]

Deuteronomy 29:29 states The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of his all.

Now I'm guessing most of this thread consists of questions that fall under "the secret things" but don't quote me

 

[Ceridwen018]

"What to do, what to do, what to do?!...GOT IT!"
-Robin Hood, Men in Tights

Perhaps, god is simply trying to weed out the logical thinkers from his 'light and love'. Maybe he doesn't like us, because he's making it pretty impossible for us to accept him.

This is what I was thinking when I read your last post:

'Loyal Subject' walks down the hall to god's room, where she hears some murmuring and cackling laughter coming from inside. She gently knocks and enters.
Loyal Subject: Um, hey god-- What's up?
God: (hurridly shoves the cards and poker chips off the table, as a red tail dissappears out the back door.) Oh, hey there, (clears throat), nothing much...can I help you?
Loyal Subject: Oh, I just had a question is all. You know how you don't like evil and all?
God: yeesss...
LS: Well, why do you still let it exist? I mean, that doesn't make any sense.
God: Oh yeah, jeez, sorry, I can't tell you that.
LS: (dissappointedly) Oh...ok...can I ask why not?
God: (wrathfully) DO NOT QUESTION THE LORD! Haha, oh shoot--gets me every time...um, I'm just jokin with ya. Why can't I tell you? Weelll...it's one of those unkowable mystery thingys...yeah yeah-- one of those!
LS: (face lights up) Oh I see! Thanks god, that explains evrything! I'll see ya around, ok?
God: (Loosening collar and letting out a big breath) Ok sure, bye bye now!

This is all in good fun, but do you see my point? Why would god make up a bunch of crap that we can't even understand?

 

[theghostinthemachine]

theghostinthemachine--

If evil is unavoidable--even for God--to acheive a greater good, then God is not *all* powerful (he's just *very* powerful). According to your argument, there are certain laws of logic (ie that evil cannot be destroyed without taking away free will or compromising some sort of 'greater good') that are superior and more powerful than God is, and God can't change them. If God were all-powerful, He could do things that were illogical, since God could decide what is or isn't logical. Therefore if God cannot destroy evil without compromising free will/some other good, then God is not *all* powerful.

The 'Trinity' stands! arty:

Mr. Sprinkles,

Why do you think that if evil is unavoidable for God, that God is not omnipotent? You claimed that there are "certain laws of logic...that are superior and more powerful than God is..." Like morality, the principles of logic find their *basis* in the character and nature of God, thus they are neither outside of God or contingent on God. However, what principle of logic do you think that "...evil cannot be destroyed without taking away free will..." represents? I am familiar with the law of contradiction (A cannot be A and ~A), rules of inference such as Modus Tollens, etc. but what exact principle are you thinking of? You also claim that God can do what is illogical, but this makes no sense. God, because the principles of logic find their basis and truth in His character and nature *is* omnipotent because God can not do what is logically impossible. There are *no states of affairs* that can attain that are logically impossible. Thus, it makes no sense to say that God can do whatever He wants.

 

[Ceridwen018]

thegohstinthemachine,

"Thus, it makes no sense to say that God can do whatever He wants."

Exactly.

"However, what principle of logic do you think that "...evil cannot be destroyed without taking away free will..." represents?"

What Mr. Spinkles meant here, is that by *your* theory, it is a logical law that evil cannot be taken away without free will being taken away as well. There is no special 'logical law' which states that or anything, which I think is where you're being misled here maybe.

"God can not do what is logically impossible."

Agreed. But you see, god *created* logic, and decided what would be logical and what would be illogical. Therefore, he should be able to bend the rules because he's the one who made them. Technically though, I agree that god cannot do anything illogical, on account of because, the minute he does, it becomes logical.

Summing up, if god wanted to, he could make this trinity logical...if he wanted to, he could get rid of evil and still keep free will. And who knows...maybe he does inded want to, but the question then is, does he not do it because he is not powerful enough?

 

[true blood]

How do you know he hasn't already destroyed evil? Our generations could be but a mere split second to God.

 

[Ceridwen018]

How do you know he hasn't already destroyed evil? Our generations could be but a mere split second to God.

We know that he hasn't destroyed evil because we can witness it every day. How would we still be able to be exposed to and participate in evil things if they no longer existed?

 

[Master Vigil]

And also true blood, god is not bound by time. So our time, his time, any time, has no relevance to when he could destroy evil.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

theghostinthemachine said: >>Thus, it makes no sense to say that God can do whatever He wants.<<

Right. So you're saying God is not all powerful. The Trinity stands.

trueblood said: >>How do you know he hasn't already destroyed evil? Our generations could be but a mere split second to God.<<

So you're saying evil does not exist. The Trinity stands (in fact, even if God let evil exist "only for a little while" and then destroyed it, it still doesn't explain why He ever let it exist at all)

 

[brookehbw]

I believe I can solve this riddle...

God does not exist. At least a good God anyway.

We are all alone on this planet, and to survive, sometimes you need to be evil.

Good and evil are just a subjective human perspective.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we've found the answer! :clap: