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The Trinity is Wrong

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by croak, Dec 28, 2004.

  1. croak

    croak Trickster

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  2. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    The trinity was a way for the church to explain that they too were part of the monotheistic tradition of Judaism while at the same time still being able to worship Jesus as well as the One G-d.
     
  3. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Or maybe it was a simple way to convert Romans and other polytheistic peoples.
     
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  4. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    ^agreed


    the one and only g-d was/is not the only one to recieve worship in the ot.

    i don't believe the trinity, but i'm christian.
     
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  5. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    I find many christian denominations fascinating...it's like a time capsule of pagan traditions...look at the catholic church and it's saints. It was in this way that african religions in Catholic colonies of the new world were able to survive so well, they simply matched their african gods to the appropriate catholic saint.
     
  6. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    RR,

    Do you only read apologetic pieces against Christianity? Your article is dealing with a scarecrow of the Trinity. Go and read something written by Christians, and then, when you've tried to understand the other side, come back. Until you've done that, why should anyone try and debate you?
     
  7. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Everyone

    The trinity is totally absurd and is the false creation of men in keeping with 2 Corinthians 4:4, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them." (Douay Rheims Catholic Bible; DRCB). To learn the facts is keeping with John 8:32, "And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free." (DRCB), go to the following links and read my articles:

    Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97

    and;

    Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209

    and;

    Trinity = Absurd to the Extreme:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61

    and;

    Colossians 2:8-12 & John 1:1 - Learn The Facts

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93

    and;

    Scourge of Christendom, The Pagan Trinity:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58

    and;

    Trinity = Absurd God (YHWH) Dishonoring Doctrine:

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=58.topic

    and;

    Discourse on John 8:58:

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=83.topic

    and;

    Learn - Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic

    and;

    When God's (YHWH's) Kingdom Starts Rulling:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=204

    and,

    Discourse on the Bible:

    http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?p=46520#46520

    and,

    Muslims Do Not Comprehend The Bible:

    http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=5096

    and,

    Let's Have Reality in Translation:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207

    and,

    Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190

    and,

    DISCOURSE ON THE MISCONCEPTION WITH RESPECT 'I AM'
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185

    And,

    Discourse On The Holy Spirit:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=184

    and,

    Discourse on Trinitarians Being Blinded to The Truth:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178

    and,

    Rebuke To A Trinitarian, Trinity is God Dishonoring False Doctrine

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176

    and,

    Discourse On The Trinity of Reasons That Prove The Trinity a Myth:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148

    and,

    Does the Apostle Thomas' exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God (YHWH)?
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=145

    And,

    Discourse on Jeremiah 23:5-6 and the Confusion on YHWH Tsidqenu and Its Equivalents:
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  8. Christopher Krajewski

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    Cute qoute: it represents the capacity to refer to Emmanuel Kant's morals. Actually in my mind it also seems to discredit the critique of practical judgment distincitve mentality again since the new millenium.

    Religion must go beyond merely good will to the doubted character in the represented Faith of the other man. Lead into this frame of mind, I decide to conclude the old fashioned rejection of Kantian ethics. Which is: the community is not the purpose for Law as much as a law may seem generally applied to it for its social structure (happening).

    This rearing, spoken about here, would be for the practice in developing social structure. But social structures have already the reality of existing in an formal anti-thesis for all disatisfied peoples.

    As for the blessed trinity: God wants us to settle for it NOW. If it is wrong it is as wrong as the Gold standard in economics. WE can only believe in God as Jesus, or as Buddha, or as Mohammed who all emulated Him. :) In many ways we can't have a free will with confidence on that sort of truth unless we refer to God outside the general framework of things, outside space and time. Personally, I am not content with the the system for man AGAINST or WITH God in the defeated dualism (bifurcation) after Kant.
     
  9. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Correct me if I'm wrong: Christianity is the only Abrahamic religion that has a trinity, and Abraham (as) never worshipped a trinity. After 'Isa (as)'s death, a previous disbeliever named Paul said he had a vision that he saw 'Isa (as). He said you can eat pork, even though it is forbidden somewhere in Deutronomy. He said you don't need to believe in the OT, while 'Isa (as) is said to have said he was only confirming what had been revealed before, which means you must believe that the OT, although corrupted by man, had once been told by Musa (Moses) (as) to the Israelites. And he was the first person to mention the trinity. Now, since he lived way before the NT was compiled, his ideas surely played a part. Anyone heard of the Council at Nicea in 300 something A.D.? Where many ideas, some true, were rejected?
     
  10. croak

    croak Trickster

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    I've been hearing stuff written by Christians for 8 years. I go to a Christian school.
     
  11. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Oh, and one final question: If they really are 3 in 1, how do they get along? You know by experience people don't get along all the time. And you say we are created in God's Image. So, what's the answer? They are all one? I know how sometimes an egg is used to represent the trinity. But, not all the parts are the same. They work together to make one thing, but they are still not the same.
     
  12. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    In that case, rather than copy arguments from an apologetics site or refer us to one, you could always formulate your own arguments.

    Which Christian group is it also? Some groups are more nutty than others...
     
  13. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    1). God is beyond human comprehension.
    2). Why wouldn't they get along?

    Yes we say that man is made in God's image, but we also say man is fallen.

    I kind of like the shamrock analogy personally, then there's the cherry pie analogy.

    The former makes the Trinity out to be like the shamrock where one leaf is split into three. The latter like cherry pie where it's one pie that may be three separate pieces, but the goo connects it all beneath the cuts. In essence three and one.
     
  14. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi RearingArabian

    FIRST, You never read my articles at:

    Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209

    And,

    Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97

    and;

    Trinity = Absurd to the Extreme:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61

    and;

    Colossians 2:8-12 & John 1:1 - Learn The Facts

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93

    and;

    Scourge of Christendom, The Pagan Trinity:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58

    and;

    Trinity = Absurd God (YHWH) Dishonoring Doctrine:

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=58.topic

    and;

    Discourse on John 8:58:

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=83.topic

    and;

    Learn - Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic

    and;

    When God's (YHWH's) Kingdom Starts Rulling:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=204

    and,

    Discourse on the Bible:

    http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?p=46520#46520

    and,

    Let's Have Reality in Translation:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207

    and,

    Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190

    and,

    DISCOURSE ON THE MISCONCEPTION WITH RESPECT 'I AM'
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185

    And,

    Discourse On The Holy Spirit:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=184

    and,

    Discourse on Trinitarians Being Blinded to The Truth:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178

    and,

    Rebuke To A Trinitarian, Trinity is God Dishonoring False Doctrine

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176

    and,

    Discourse On The Trinity of Reasons That Prove The Trinity a Myth:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148

    and,

    Does the Apostle Thomas' exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God (YHWH)?
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=145

    And,

    Discourse on Jeremiah 23:5-6 and the Confusion on YHWH Tsidqenu and Its Equivalents:
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127

    Therefore you do NOT HAVE the slightest idea what true Christians that accept the Bible as the Standard believe; you only know what so called Christians that accept the doctrines of men believe. You should learn what true Christians believe **** instead of going to a Bible knockoff, the Quran (Koran). Also, you should know that Sura 3:48 clearly condemns the Trinity, now get the facts, read my articles. Also, read the following article by me directed to Muslims:


    Muslims Do Not Comprehend The Bible:

    http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=5096

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  15. kristiano

    kristiano New Member

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    Hello there, there seems to be no one here supporting the Blessed Trinity, so here I go. It's one of my first times here, so plese be patient as I make a few humble comments of things I've learned about the Trinity.

    An argument I read about either on one of the many essays or posts I've read here is that the Trinity was invented to convert polytheistic-pagans. I won't go crazy quoting the Bible here but Genesis 3:22 says: "Then the Lord said,"see, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil..."" there's plenty more Scriptural examples supporting the existence of the Trinity even before the conversion of pagans to Christianity was at it's best. In the times of early Catholic colonies in the United States and Africa, the Church was against the practice of matching patron saints to African gods. This gave birth of the hybrid sect of voodoo which is farely recent compared to the doctrine of the Trinity. This argument might have come from the fact that Christians (as early as Paul) used philosophy and other pagan concepts to present the Gospel in a way they might understand it. The Gospel is universal, offered to everyone and can be preached in any linguistic or visual way as long as it does not trivialize or distort it.

    For those of you who already know all about Christianity you can stop reading, but if you just don't like how the Trinity sounds and you're rejecting the doctrine because of ethnocentric reasons then give yourself a chance and keep reading.
    In one divine nature there are three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). No one of these is the other, each is Himself. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. They are not three Gods but one God. "Three persons in one nature." The only thing is that if one does not define person and nature, they drop out and all we are left is 3 in 1 with the impossible mathematical equation of 3=1.
    Nature means there is a person, an "I" who posseses the nature. To be brief it is "my nature" not "my nature's me." If one is in a dark room and hears a noise, one would ask "what is that?" or if there's a person's shadow with undistinguished features one may ask "who is that?".
    Person is that which distinguishes one from the other who have the same nature (and I know you get the point by now so I'll stop bolding). The nature of the trinity is God and it has three persons, if asked "who are you?" each could give His own answer, Father, Son, or Spirit. To the question "what are you?" all three could answer God. It is necessary to emphasize two points here:

    1. The three persons do not share the divine nature, it can not be divided but possesed in its totality
    2. The persons are distinct but not separate, each is Himself, each is what He is by possesing the one same nature. Apart from that nature no one of them could ever exist.
    A quick example is: Family=nature, Person= Father, Mother, or Child if either one is separate or out of the equation they are cut off and therefor do not exist as a Father, Son or Mother (no need to mention the disintegration of the family unit in modern times).

    Only at first does this seem dry and unrewarding. The rewards for persistance are inmense. The Trinity is a mystery, not a contradiction.

    AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIA
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Good post Kristiano. The only thing I can take major issue with is the "substance" comment. That issue of whether they all have the divine "substance" was at the heart of the Arian debates, because Arius began teaching that they did not share the divine "substance" (ousia in Greek and substantia in Latin).

    In the end, the Christian bishops met in Nicea and proclaimed Christ was "homoousia"/"consubstantial" with the Father. That is, He has the same "substance." I realize this is probably just a minor slip, but it has pretty major implications...
     
  17. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Everyone

    The trinity is nothing but a God (YHWH) dishonoring myth or pagan legend and nothing is blessed about it. As Uriah the Messiahite put it he is not eternal as shown by the scriptures:

    .

    Also, with respect to the Council of Nicea of 325 AD, go to my series of articles at the following and learn the facts, the truth:

    Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  18. Christopher Krajewski

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    The Blessed Trinity if Christian is only a picture thought. In other religions as Islam trinity can mean something personal at once as something in the common thought and perception of the community. You see: personalism, thought and finally perception if not in this world; then in the next.

    Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  19. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Christopher Krajewski

    You are wrong as shown directly from the Quran (Koran) and commentaries on it by a leading Muslim scholar:

    Sura 3:5 " The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was. " [the Quran (Koran) by Dr. Khalifa].

    [
    Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:59]

    The Christians of Najran came to the Holy Prophet and asked him as to why he had been abusing Jesus (Isa) by saying that he was a man created by God, when he was born without a father. The Holy prophet told them that he could not abuse Isa as he was the "word of Allah" communicated through a purified virgin, Maryam, but the reason (birth of a man without a father) put forward by them to accept him as a son of God or God was untenable because Allah created Adam without a father and a mother.

    Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

    The process of creation has been discussed in verses 6 and 37 of this surah according to which Allah's will is the principal factor in the process of creation. The birth of Isa to a virgin mother, without a male partner, was an immediate effect of His will, manifested to the world as a miracle, just as the birth of Adam took place without the agency of a father and a mother. When He wills a thing to "be", it becomes. Even in the theory of evolution there comes a stage, while backtracking, when one has to accept the fact that a living being must have come into being without the agency of a sexual procedure. Whatever once happened in the process of creation can take place any time, may be once in a great while but not altogether impossible. There are several examples in nature, which are inexplicable through any law known to man. The only explanation, as the Quran points out, is the imperative word of Allah. As has been stated in the commentary of verse 6 of this surah, the hand of Allah is visible in the working of the whole universe.

    The likeness of Isa with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. Therefore, as the Christian church argues, if Isa was a son of God because he was born without a father, Adam deserved more to be God or son of God as he came into being without a father and a mother .

    The creation of Isa has been compared to the creation of Adam, the first human being. There would be no point in comparing Isa to a (universal) man as the Ahmadi commentator conveys has been done in this verse. [source - Pooya/Ali Commentary on the Quran (Koran)]

    Exerts from the Quran (Koran) on Jesus (Yeshua) whom they call "Isa."

    [19:88] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"!

    [19:89] You have uttered a gross blasphemy.

    [19:90] The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble.

    [19:91] Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son.

    [19:92] It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

    [19:93] Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious.

    [19:94] He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.

    [19:95] All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.

    ___

    So as you can see, you have the wrong understanding of what Muslims believe as shown by the Quran (Koran) and the commentary on it by Pooya/Ali a great Muslim scholar.

    The so called 'blessed Trinity' is neither blessed nor true Christian, but is God (YHWH) dishonoring doctrine that comes ultimately from Satan the Devil. To gain a better understanding of what history shows with respect the fact that I just gave you which you probably will find hard to accept even though it is true, go to this link and read the first three documents and be sure to check them with encyclopedias, history books, and the Bible. They are well referenced so this will be fairly easy to do:

    Mainstream Religion Sold Out To Paganism, Details Sellout to Pagan Politicians

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209

    And for more information if you desire further proof, go to the following:

    Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97

    and;

    Trinity = Absurd to the Extreme:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61

    and;

    Colossians 2:8-12 & John 1:1 - Learn The Facts

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93

    and;

    Scourge of Christendom, The Pagan Trinity:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58

    and;

    Trinity = Absurd God (YHWH) Dishonoring Doctrine:

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=58.topic

    and;

    Discourse on John 8:58:

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=83.topic

    and;

    Learn - Documentary on Our Savior Jesus (Yeshua):

    http://p078.ezboard.com/fyahwehstruthinchristfrm2.showMessage?topicID=74.topic

    and;

    When God's (YHWH's) Kingdom Starts Rulling:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=204

    and,

    Discourse on the Bible:

    http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?p=46520#46520

    and,

    Muslims Do Not Comprehend The Bible:

    http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=5096

    and,

    Let's Have Reality in Translation:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=207

    and,

    Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190

    and,

    DISCOURSE ON THE MISCONCEPTION WITH RESPECT 'I AM'
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185

    And,

    Discourse On The Holy Spirit:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=184

    and,

    Discourse on Trinitarians Being Blinded to The Truth:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=178

    and,

    Rebuke To A Trinitarian, Trinity is God Dishonoring False Doctrine

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=176

    and,

    Discourse On The Trinity of Reasons That Prove The Trinity a Myth:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148

    and,

    Does the Apostle Thomas' exclamation at John 20:28 prove that Jesus is truly God (YHWH)?
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=145

    And,

    Discourse on Jeremiah 23:5-6 and the Confusion on YHWH Tsidqenu and Its Equivalents:
    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89

     
  20. JesusBeliever

    JesusBeliever Active Member

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    Christian Universalist
    I would correct this by saying that Catholicism defined the trinity and enforced it on all Christians while they were in power. Protestants broke away from Catholicism but many of them took the trinity doctrine with them and have retained it to this day. As for whether the NT teaches the trinity, that is a matter of debate within Christianity, some being in favour of it and some not. Personally, I'm of the latter group, but that's not to say that I don't worship and pray to Jesus because I do, every day, and He answers.

    Throughout the Bible, OT & NT is plenty of evidence that there was a greater & deeper meaning to scripture. For example, most of the OT Prophets tell us that God spoke metaphorically of His people as His FLOCK or SHEEP. Most if not all animals mentioned in the OT are metaphoric of different types of people. Jesus (or Isa) attested to this in several of His comments in the Gospels, calling some people dogs, swine, wolves, goats and sheep. The interesting thing to note about the woman he called a dog (being a Canaanite) is that He not only healed this woman's daughter but told the woman in Matthew 15:28:

    O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. Matthew 15:28

    The whole account can be found in Matthew 15:22-28. This story is important along with the one about the Roman Centurion in which Jesus said in Matthew 8:10-13:

    When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. Matthew 8:10-13

    It was the Apostle Peter who had the vision about eating unclean animals in Acts 10:1-48, and God showed him that He was speaking metaphorically of people from other nations just like he did in the OT. In Acts 10:15 God is recorded as saying to Peter, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common". And then later in Act 10:28 Peter reveals to his audience the deeper meaning of this vision, saying: "Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." And then later in verses 34 & 35 he elaborates more on this saying:

    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34-35


    Jesus claimed to be the Good Shepherd:

    Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

    Ezekiel 34, especially verses 11 & 12 tell us precisely who Jesus was claiming to be!

    The Shepherd became the Lamb of God and died for the sins of the whole world just as the Passover Lamb prophesied He would.

    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    I and my Father are one. John 10:27-30
     
    #20 JesusBeliever, Jul 15, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2015
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