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Featured The Trinity in the NT (my belief)

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Teritos, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Matthew 28:19
    Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    John 14:26
    But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything.

    2 Corinthians 13:14
    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all!
     
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  2. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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  3. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    To be baptized in the name of Jesus (the son) is the same as being baptized in the name of the Father and the son because the son has come in the name of his Father. God made Jesus to be Lord, which means God has given His name to His son.

    And being baptized with the Holy Spirit simply means that the believers would receive the gifts of God's Holy Spirit which Jesus received from the Father and sent down to his disciples.
     
  4. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Jesus addresses His position as God, as I understand it, when He asked a question:

    41 But he said to them, “How can they say that the Christ is David's son?42 For David himself says in the Book of Psalms,

    “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
    “Sit at my right hand,
    43 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

    44 David thus calls him Lord, so how is he his son?”
     
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  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    We are told that David (a father of Jesus) is both dead and buried.

    Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    God has highly exalted Jesus and given him a name above all names so that every knee shall bow to Jesus. The things under the earth would include David.
    Jesus has been made, by God, David's Lord even though Jesus is David's son.
     
  6. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    The OT and the NT say that Jesus is God's incarnation. God personally who became man accomplished what man could not accomplish, as it is written in 1 Kings 8:46, For there is no man who does not sin.
    The Torah was waiting for someone who would fulfill the Law, but since man was unable to do it, the Perfect One Himself had to descend from heaven.
     
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  7. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I think if you are going to use Philippians, you have to use whole of the scripture:

    6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped orretained,

    7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
     
  8. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    The perfect One Himself who descended from heaven was the Father when He put His spirit, without measure, upon His son who was made flesh. God did not even have to leave His heavenly abode to place His spirit upon Jesus. It/He descended upon him in the form of a dove.

    Jesus was not alone when he faced all the temptations to sin which all who are in the flesh (sinful flesh) face.
     
  9. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    People assume that Jesus actually existed before he existed. They call it "pre-existence".

    Where does Paul say that in Philippians 2? He doesn't.

    Trinitarian commentators suggest that "being in the form of God" means Jesus was God before he became man.

    Paul is simply referring to the mighty power of God's spirit that was given to Jesus whereby Jesus was enabled to do the mighty works he did and will do. Paul is saying that Jesus, having an unlimited measure of God's spirit did not abuse it, but instead humbled himself as a servant.
     
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Where does it say this in Torah?
     
  11. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    I don't think that is an assumption. It says it quite explicitly in John 1:1-14. Pretty unmistakable says "In the Beginning was the Logos..." and that "all things that were created were created through him". That happened long before Jesus of Nazareth was born. Then, when he was born, that pre-existent Logos of verse 1, "became flesh and dwelt among us" in verse 14. I'm not sure why you call that view of the Christ as an "assumption", when it says it right there?

    The hymn in Phil. 2 very much points to a pre-existent Christ. I'll highlight the words which point directly to that.

    Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!​

    He was "equal to God", became a human in likeness, and died. If you "became" a human, he "made himself" lower than God, then you were something beforehand in order to make yourself something, and appear as something you in your pre-existent state were not.

    I think the word "nature" is better than "form", inasmuch as God is Spirit and Spirit does not have "form". But it does say he possessed the nature or being of God in that verse. It also explicitly states that in John 1:1.

    Not quite. It says he emptied himself of that Divine nature, and "became a man". Very much paralleling what John 1:14 says, "The Logos became flesh".

    If Phil 2 means just simple humility, like any servant of God does, then what on earth is John 1:14 going on about?
     
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  12. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    That is what the Torah is directed to, because the Law is there to be fulfilled. Through the fulfillment of the law will also come the blessings mentioned in Moses. But whoever breaks the law, the curse comes upon him, which is death. And every man breaks the law, as for example David who committed adultery and then murdered to cover it up, for this reason God killed his son, because the law requires blood as atonement. For this reason, God Himself came and fulfilled the law for man, so that the blessings and eternal life would come to man. This is grace.
     
  13. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever studied the word LOGOS as used in the N.T.?

    At one point Jesus says(speaking of his God about his disciples) that he has given them "YOUR(God's) LOGOS(word)".

    What existed in the beginning was God's LOGOS(word). And when Jesus came into existence by being born of a woman, he became God's LOGOS(word).


    Like I said, Paul says nothing about Jesus before he was born. He says nothing about while Jesus was in heaven, or before his coming to earth, or anything like that. Paul was not a Trinitarian. And neither was Jesus.

    The "form" Jesus displayed while on earth as a mortal man was like that of God. He spoke the words of God, he did the works of his Father, and he was given the spirit of his Father without measure. Jesus performed many miracles right before their very eyes. None of that did he claim was of himself....."the Father doeth the works" he said. "of myself I can do nothing".

    To see Jesus was to see the Father. He even told his disciples that when they asked to see the Father.

    This is Paul's idea in Philippians 2.

    It's as if he were saying that to see Jesus was to see the Father (the one true God) because Jesus is everything his Father is. The Father can do many miracles. He can raised the dead, heal the sick, calm the waves, turn back the sun, etc. He is the truth. He is wisdom.....all that the Father has he has given to His son.

    Jesus had these things before he died and was raised from the dead. But he could not take full advantage of what was given him until he was raised in the glory he now has. He could not take his kingdom as King, nor be a priest of the order of Melchizedek, nor a prophet like Moses. He had to first suffer what he did.

    Jesus is no longer a mortal man. He is King of those who will rule with him when his kingdom comes, He is an immortal Priest like Melchizedec, and his prophecy was given to John already.

    That's what Paul is saying.

    Php 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
    Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
    Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
    Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
    Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
     
    #13 LightofTruth, Mar 1, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    So, half of your conclusion is from The Torah, and half of it is from Christian theology.

    That makes sense. Thank you,
     
  15. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Actually, God sent His son so that the sin which resides in the flesh could be condemned. Although Jesus was of the same flesh as all the rest of mankind...by which the law is made weak...Jesus overcame the flesh and the world and did no sin even though he was tempted as we are.
    God accepted Jesus' sacrifice and thereby condemned the sin in the flesh so that all who look to him may be healed.
     
  16. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Before Jesus was strung up on a pole he said "Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so too must the son of man be lifted up".

    When the children of Israel murmured in the wilderness out of their own lustful desires, God sent serpents among them and they began to die from the bites. So, Moses tied up a serpent on a pole and whoever looked to the serpent would be healed.

    The serpent is a symbol of the lustful desires of the flesh which give birth to sin, and sin to death. When the people looked at the dead serpent (sinful flesh) hung on the pole, they were healed.

    In the same way, when Jesus was hung up on the pole and the sinful flesh condemned, all who look to him are healed.
     
  17. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Yes I have. Quite a bit.

    Have you ever studied Philo of Alexandria who used the term Logos to describe a mediating agent of creation which reveals the hidden, unknowable God? If so, then you would recognize that the author of John is borrowing Philo's Logos agent of God, to try to talk about Jesus of Nazareth. He is identifying Jesus, as that eternal Logos, or agent of manifestation, of Philo.

    I fully agree Jesus came into existence. The Logos, which incarnate as the human Jesus however, is the eternal Logos, or God. The Logos IS God. It says that in Jn. 1:1 "The Logos was God", not was God's word.

    I would more than disagree with this. If you look at Hebrews 1, it not only agrees with the pre-existent Christ "in the form of God" from Philo, this also agrees directly with John's vision of the Christ as the pre-existent, eternal Logos, which is God becoming flesh.

    "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."​

    What you see on display here in this verse, is Paul's view of Jesus identically with John who cites the Logos as the Agent of creation through with God creates. Divine, in other words. Christ is eternal Divinity, manifesting God. That's Logos of Jn.1, and the "express image of his person" (eternal Manifestor of God). Not only is the Christ the Agent of Creation, he upholds and sustains all things through his Being.

    That is not a description of a human being, or an angel, or a prophet. It's a description of Divinity itself.

    Correct. The flesh was not Divine. The Logos is. Jesus was both fully human, and fully divine. This is known as the doctrine of the hypostatic union, which is a teaching based upon recognizing this dual-nature of Jesus within scripture.

    Yes of course. Jesus was able to surrender his human side, and let the Divine side show through and manifest fully. To see Jesus, is to see God in the flesh. Something he encourages all Christians to be. "Let your Light so shine before men, that they may see God in you," was his basic teaching.

    Yes he is. And Jesus is his Son, or that Agent of Manifestation, from John 1, Hebrews 1, and Philippians. To see Jesus is to see God, because he is God.

    Jesus was the Agent of Creation. I'd call that doing a miracle. :)

    Sure. Jesus was not "in the beginning". Jesus was born a little over 2000 years ago. But Jesus was the Logos become flesh, or incarnate. And the Logos is eternal, and it is God itself.
     
  18. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    1) REGARDING THE ANCIENT MODEL OF THE SON (the “only begotten”, the “elect one”, the Fathers “right arm”, etc, etc) AS AN AGENT IN CREATION AND HIS SPECIFIC ROLE IN CREATION.


    Hi @Windwalker

    I agree with you that the earliest model of creation consisted of The Messiah, the Son, the Word, as the agent of creation. The early Judeo-Christian literature confirms this was their interpretation of scriptures.

    For example, the doctrine that the earth was created by the SON, is reflected in Prayer #4 of Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers where they prayed to God thusly : “you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator...(aposCon 7.35.1-10);

    This doctrine is reflected in yet another Hellenistic Synagogal prayer (#1) that was said after the communion : ‘We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...on behalf of the knowledge and faith and love and immortality which you gave to us through Jesus your Son. O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,...(Apos Con 7.26. 1-3)

    “Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared; prayer #3 - (aposCon 7.34.1-8)

    Using the common epithet of Jesus as God’s “right hand” Baruch honors God the Father who “with your counsel, you reign over all creation which your right hand has created” (The apocalypse of (Baruch 2) 54:13)

    In the same manner, Clement of the New Testament speaks of things done by the Father, but THROUGH Jesus as administrator : for example, he refers to God as the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ...” and that God calls us from darkness to light “through” Jesus, and he refers to “ those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant..” (1 Clem 59:2-3)

    This same doctrine regarding the cascade of Eternally existing Authority, from God the Father, through his Son as Administrator is woven into many ancient teachings and texts. For example, the ancient hellenistic synogogal prayers confirms this ancient doctrine : the God and Father of your only Son, our God and Savior, the maker of the whole universe through him; the Administrator, the Guardian, ... (HELLENISTIC SYNAGOGAL PRAYERS - #9 (AposCon 8.5.1-4)

    In this ancient model, the messiah as the word, was given a specific role and authority by God to operate as an agent in creation and administration for the Father AND, as the creator, existed before the creation he accomplished..



    Kudos to you for having some historical awareness.



    Clear
    τωακτωω
     
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  19. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    "agent of God" or God?
    "agent of manifestation"?

    The problem for the Trinitarian is that the LOGOS was "with God".

    You see, John knows of only ONE GOD not three. Was the LOGOS with your Trinity God?

    Let's see how that works:

    In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with the Trinity(the one God of trinitarianism) and the Word was the Trinity?

    Nope, that don't work for the trinitarian.

    Ok, maybe John was referring to the Father when he said "God". Let's try that one:

    In the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with the Father and the Word was the Father?

    Oops, that don't work for the trinitarian either.
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Why did you just relegate the answer to just Philippians? Is it because if you take the whole of the bible it would say he did pre-exist like in the book of John and others?

    Your interpretation doesn't say what you are saying.
     
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