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Featured The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by rrobs, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but you're assuming He is referring to the entire Word of God or in other words the whole Tanakh.

    But, what He means is the prophecy in Psalm 82 itself. It was a prophecy directed at specific people. "the word of God" sent to a specific group of people. We see this in scriptures over and over that the "Word of the LORD" or in this case the "Word of God" is sent or comes to this or that person or group of people.

    This is why He says "if he called them gods". If it was unto the Jews; then Jesus should have said "if he called you gods".
     
  2. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    I'm afraid you are simply incorrect. In the first place, Psalm 82 isn't limited to a specific subset of the Jewish people - and Jesus doesn't take it that way. In the second place, in context Jesus is very clearly applying this verse to his accusers. He is rebutting their accusations against him by pointing out that the scriptures call them Gods, while he makes the lesser claim: that he is the Son of God.

    Finally, you're "them" vs "you" complaint holds no weight. It is very plain to see that them = "those to whom God's word came" = the Jewish People, a group to which his accusers belong. Just 'cause you wouldn't speak that way doesn't mean it is an invalid or unclear way to state it.
     
  3. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The fact is I used to believe the same way you do about these verses. I thought it was to the Jews (or anyone who reads the scriptures). But, I had to change my belief when presented with evidence to the contrary. You should be willing to reexamine your interpretation of scriptures.

    Everything you're saying here is based off of assumptions. For example I didn't even claim it was to a specific subset of Jewish people at all. In fact I haven't even told you yet who I believe Psalm 82 is about.

    And you say my argument holds no weight?
     
  4. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I think you are referring to Exodus chapter 33. God is spirit (John 4:24). A spirit can not be seen and does not have a face, arms, or a back. Those terms are a figure of speech, specifically anthropomorphism. John 1:18 on the other hand is speaking literally so it in no way contradicts Exodus. To this day, no man has seen God.

    Jesus did say that if you saw him you saw God. Another apparent contradiction. If the scriptures are accepted as truth, there can be no contradictions. What people see as contradictions, I see as a failure to understand something or another. The problem is with understanding, not the scriptures themselves.

    We use a phrase that goes something like, "if you've seen one you've seen them all." We all understand that it doesn't mean to actually see "all" of something. Instead they are simply saying that all the things we didn't actually see are exactly like the one thing we did see. In that sense we did see the "all" things. Jesus always did his father's will, every jot and tittle. In that sense if you saw him you did see God, but not literally.
     
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  5. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    You've already stated you think it refers to a specific subset of people. Jesus, on the other hand, applies it liberally - to those who received God's word. If you have serious evidence I'll consider it - but nothing presented so far is in agreement with Jesus' interpretation of the passage.

    You're argument about "you" versus "them" indeed holds no weight. Just because you personally wouldn't have stated it as such doesn't invalidate the way that Jesus said it.
     
  6. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    It is just a personal sentiment of mine. I think he can shift his form at will. Told ya I was weird.
     
  7. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I am not good at sarcasm. I think many problems are caused by the word "God". A lot of people use the word "God" when they really mean the Heavenly Father. But the Father is only part of "God". Jesus is also part of "God". It is like a family. You can have one family with several members of that family. There is only one God but that God can have several parts. In fact, if humans are God's children ( like many people believe) then they are part of the God family or part of God. In the beginning the Word was with the Father and the Word was part of the God family along with the Father. Later that Word was given a human body and was named Jesus.
     
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  8. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    God can't be anything He wants to be. He is limited by His word, the scriptures. They say God is love (1 John 4:8). Therefore He can't not be love, even if He wanted to. Once He says something He will always follow through with it. He can not deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13).

    Maybe you did something else that ticked them off. :)
     
  9. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Nope, not buying it.
     
  10. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Which part specifically?
     
  11. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but I really don't understand exactly what you are saying or asking. I'm not sure what you ostensibly want me to explain, but I have a feeling that whatever it is you wouldn't buy my answer. You seem biased against me.
     
  12. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Gee, I never thought you'd say something like that! I thought I would convince you for sure to become a Christian. What can I say to make you think just like me?

    1Cor 3:19,

    For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
    I'm just goofing around with you. A bit of playful bantering. I don't mean to offend you in any way. I hope you understand my humor.
     
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  13. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I looked for "hypostatic union" in a concordance and couldn't find it anywhere. I don't think it's scriptural. I went to Catholic school for 12 years with religion class 1 hour/day, 5 days/week. I know the verbiage. Most of it is from the Catechism, not the scriptures. They are more often than not at odds with one another. I choose to believe the scriptures, so I don't believe in a hypostatic union of any sort. Many of the Roman/Greek mystery religions had god-men, but the scriptures are void of any such idea.

    Jesus was tempted just like you and me (Heb 4:15). How could that be if he knew he was part God but you and I have no such notions floating around in our mind? Seems like if I knew I was half God, I'd have a different view on things. Temptations certainly wouldn't affect me the way they do now.

    The world was indeed made through and for Jesus, but God did the creating.
     
  14. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    Deut 6:4,

    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
    Just leave it at that without going into man's wisdom. God is not two different individuals with the same title. As Deuteronomy says, He is one.
     
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  15. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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  16. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    It you are sincerely seeking, you must decide what your source of truth is. If it is the Bible, then you should be able to quote verses to back up whatever it is you claim. I'm afraid that a lot of what you've said can't be found in the scriptures. It sounds more like your own reasoning. I don't say that to be critical. Nobody can go beyond what they are taught. Unfortunately orthodox Christendom has taught error pretty much from before the apostle Paul died, 2,000+ years ago (2 Tim 1:15). As such, the things he taught have been mangled beyond recognition. It's not easy to wade through all the tradition and get back to the actual truth, but it can be done. If you want any help on that, I'd be glad to point you in the right direction.
     
  17. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    I'm still curious how Mosaic law allows you to kill a bratty kid and Jesus made it to adulthood after this.

    Some minds can be blown with the simplest of ideas.

    Then why does He feel the need to tell us how to act? He has no frame of reference, right?

    The taste of feet is profound to babies.

    Jesus is not burdened with excess humility.

    And it's impossible that Jesus' ego is massaged by Peter's constant butt kissing?

    Peter clearly wants to be more than Jesus' Number Two. It infuriates him when he tries to copy the "miracles" of Jesus only to fail. He runs off instead of standing up for what he believes on a fairly consistent basis. Peter considers himself just as important as Jesus and yet it is Peter, not Judas, who Jesus calls Satan.

    He breaks several commandments and other holy laws. People were threatened with death if they disobeyed. Why does Jesus get a pass?

    What is the point of the middle man?

    He specifically said he came to save Jews. Are you one? Me neither.

    If I went back in time, he would no doubt treat me like the gentile woman asking him for some help, calling me a dog and ignoring me until I shamed him into helping, like how you have to guilt-trip megachurches to open doors during hurricanes.

    God's vague nature was not always so. Originally He was very anthropomorphic, just as Everyone else in the pantheon was. Judaism has tried hard to ignore its polytheistic past, but they can't erase it totally.
     
  18. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    the word for one is echad which is also used in the marriage of Adam and Eve... "The two shall be one [echad] flesh" also used on one clump of grapes brought back by Joshua and Caleb from the promised land. It allows for a unity of a plurality
     
  19. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Catholics and Protestants both believe in the hypostatic union which is Jesus has two natures divine and human

    You can see an example in John 1:19 where Jesus says "tear down this temple and in three days I will rase it again" Human enough to die. Divine enough to raise his dead human body.

    I would say the hypostatic union is also portended in Psalms 111 and Psalms 112 the blessed God Blessed man psalms
    Adjacent psalms that tell a story part 4 - the blessed God ad the b…
     
  20. rrobs

    rrobs Well-Known Member

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    I may be misunderstand you, but are you saying Adam and Eve were somehow really one person? All the grapes in the bunch were really one grape? I don't see either as a good argument for making Jesus God, especially when the scriptures say almost 50 times he is the son of God.
     
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