sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I have hope that 1) God will ultimately get God’s way and 2) once confronted with the ultimate, inescapable truth that is reality, that is God, the reality of salvation will be accepted.
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The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56
- Thread starter rrobs
- Start date
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Well, I couldn't say there'd be anything wrong if things went that way.
No. I mean, where would you stop? Insects are Arthropoda, a phylum of the animal kingdom. So, mosquitoes get resurrected? It gets ridiculous after a while!
Christ died for descendants of Adam.
Found an article:
The Resurrection—For Whom and When? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Oh, I don't know. God obviously thought all of these "lesser" lifeforms were worth creating in the first place. I'm sure a lot of people probably think it was very short-sighted of Him to create mosquitoes at all. I'll leave it to Him to decide which animals it's "ridiculous" to resurrect and which ones have some value to Him.
I believe that Christ's suffering and death accomplished two things: One of those things was to pay for our sins, and the other was to make a resurrection possible. Since I don't believe animals are capable of sinning, I don't believe He needed to pay for their sins. But I do believe that animals will be resurrected and that this is as a result of Christ's Resurrection.
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
There must be a million+ things we don't know about the new heaven and new earth. It'll be a perfect place to be sure, but whether or not spiders will be there just might be one of the things we won't know until Christ reappears. We'll find out soon enough (today would be just fine, but it's up to God).
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe they are one as Jesus stated. Pray to one; you are getting both.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I can't see Jesus praying to himself. And if they are one then Jesus is his own father. Jesus and the Father are separate "persons" or "beings" but together make up what we call God.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Thanks for bringing up that verse. Here's another verse from Isaiah,
Isa 65:25,
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
I live in the wilderness and I see death almost everyday. I find dear pieces, left over from the mountain lion's last meal. I see the dead carcasses of birds and mice that my cat kills. I see injured turkeys, bob cats, and many other animals. They won't last long without their full capabilities. I hate it! I can't wait until it's over.
Hos 2:18,
And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and [with] the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
Why doesn't everybody want to be a Christian? Seems like the best deal in town to me! Nobody has a hope for the future like the children of God.
I find, though, that most church doctrines only talk about going to heaven, and mention nothing about an Earthly paradise, which was / is Jehovah's purpose for mankind.
Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:29; Psalms 115:16; Isaiah 45:18.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
The scriptures are clear on two things:
1) Just before the tribulation begins, we will meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the air, and we will be with him from that point onward (1 Thes 4:16-17).
2) After the new heavens and earth are created, Jesus will sit on a throne on the earth (Rev 22:1-3).
Now I'm no genius, but I can deduce from these verses that we will be in the new earth, not floating around in heaven. Just like you said.
I think in general, heaven is highly misunderstood by the orthodox churches. To the ancient Middle Easterners, heaven meant anything above the earth. Their feet were planted on the earth, but their heads were in heaven. There are many verses that speak of the birds flying in heaven. When it speaks of God being in heaven it simply means He dwells in a realm that is insubstantial (as far as they knew) as opposed to the solid earth. They could see and feel the earth, but not the air. Anyway, that is my understanding and I think it fits with the scriptures. Interestingly enough, the Tao Te Ching says exactly that also. Not that the scriptures need confirmation by taoism, but they did think that way. It just shows how the East as a whole thought of heaven and earth.
At 2 Peter 3:7, after discussing the Flood, Peter wrote: “But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.”
Not to put you on the spot, but why did Peter say, the heavens and earth “that now exist”? (Some versions say, “that are now”)
As if the ones before the Flood were different?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
My understanding is this:
God created the heavens and the earth. The earth in that original creation was not without form and void (Is 45:18). When correctly translated, Genesis 1:2 should say the earth "became without form and void," not "was without form and void."
Genesis 1:6-7 says God created the earth within the midst of the waters. He separated the waters so the earth became a dry place.
Something happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 that caused the earth to be completely submerged on a cosmic level. It was way more of a "flood" than that of Noah's flood. It's not like rain fell from the sky, more like the entire material universe was flooded. In Noah's flood the ground was underwater, but in the "flood" of Genesis 1:2 the earth completely disappeared, such that God had to completely redo it.
We have 2 Peter 3:6 that speaks of the "world that then was," 2 Peter 3:7 that speaks of the "earth that is now" which will melt with a fervent heat, and the new heavens and earth in 2 Peter 3:13 which we are to look for (in the future).
Then we have 2 Corinthians 12:2 which speaks of a third heaven.
So we have the 1st heaven and earth in Genesis 1:1, the second in Genesis 1:2, and the third yet to come in Revelations, and mentioned in 2 Peter 3:13.
@rrobs , I appreciate your input.
Here’s an OP that explains my understanding of New Heavens and New Earth:
"New Heavens and New Earth" - Why Destroy the Old?
Take care, my friend.
Here’s an OP that explains my understanding of New Heavens and New Earth:
"New Heavens and New Earth" - Why Destroy the Old?
Take care, my friend.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I read your post. I'll have to chew on that a bit and get back to you.
I do like your idea that any apparent contradiction is our understanding. There's no problem with God. It's me Oh Lord, not you!
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I agree with one.
Jesus did not believe them one person, and he did not coin the term "Trinity", it is the doing of Pauline Christianity.
Regards
bitehoney
Member
.
Hello rrobs - ↑
I really love Your smile, You bring a wonderful charm to the forum or at least to my day and I am inspired by many of Your posts.
However, I would like to share with You one particular area where I ask You to please consider that You could be confused or in error. And maybe You would agree. Please let me know what You think.
You said that - The word for one is “ Echad “ which is used in the marriage of Adam and Eve... "The two shall be one [ Echad ] flesh" also used on one clump of grapes brought back by Joshua and Caleb from the promised land. It allows for a unity of a plurality
And without a doubt You are right.
H259 - אֶחָד - ' Echad / ekh-awd'. Meaning = One or first: - a, alike, alone, apiece, a certain - once, one, only.
This word is used about / around - 1,700 times in the Old Testament.
And yes, You are right - the Hebrew word - - ' Echad / ekh-awd' is not just meaning “ a primary numeral { single} one “ in the Old Testament.
For example - five times are here in - Neh 7:66 The whole congregation - { 'Echâd / ekh-awd - together } was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore.
And - Ezr 2:64 The whole congregation - { 'Echâd / ekh-awd - together } was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore.
Here in Neh 7:66 and Ezr 2:64 - the word { 'Echâd / ekh-awd together } is the word - 'Echâd / ekh-awd.
And - Ezr 3:9 Jeshua with his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, - { 'Echâd / ekh-awd - together } to set forward the workmen.....
And - Ezr 6:20 For the priests and the Levites were purified - { 'Echâd / ekh-awd - together } ......
And - Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed -{ 'Echâd / ekh-awd - together }
Also - 'Echâd
it is used as the word " first " - 178 times total
it is used as the word " a certain " - 9 times total
it is used as the word " together whole one " - 5 times total
it is used as the word "a few ones " - 6 times total
it is used as the word " another one " - 39 - times total
it is used as the word " alone " - 5 - times total
AND - it is used as the word “ A PRIMARY NUMERAL ONE “ = { 1. ) - 1503 - times total
The Hebrew word = { " ONE " Echad } Meaning = “ A PRIMARY NUMERAL ONE “ – And also FIRST: - A, CERTAIN PERSON, PLACE OR THING, ALONE.
I think that the Bible shows that You are in error as to what the Bible says concerning the “ ONENESS “ of God. Because IN THE MANUSCRIPTS - it DEFINES “ ONENESS “ as the only CHARACTER OF THE GOD OF THE OLD and NEW TESTAMENT.
And - this “ oneness “ word is explained by other supporting evidence - maintaining that Yahwhea is “ ONE “ As a primary numeral 1.
Not in the meaning of unity. There is never a single instance and in no meaning or deception of a single verse saying that The God of the Old Testament is a part of a unity of multiple persons - called a trinity. It does not exist in the Old Testament - nor the New Testament.
The Old Testament completely clarifies and give the exact meaning of what this word means - when refering to God - as we see here in Deu.32:39 —
Deu. 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me.
Joel 2:27 — And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else…..
2 Kings 19:15 — ….. O LORD God of Israel, ….. thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
2 KINGS 5:15 — …. Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel.
Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
Isaiah 43:10,11 —Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:10,11 — .……. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.
Isaiah 45:21 —There is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
Many verses such as the ones above are saying that God is the only God of Israel and the only savior to ever exist in Israel
Also there around 100 other verses that say that the Old Testament Father is the only rock such as here in - Psa 18:31 — For who is God except the LORD? or who is a rock except our God?
But Yahoshua is the Rock in the New Testament. = 1 Cor 10:4 - And { under Moses } all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Also, many other verses show the “ ONENESS “ of God.
Zech 14:9 - And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
- Here in Zech 14:9 - The Old Testament Father is the only King of the earth -
But in the New Testament, Yahoshua is The King of the earth.
Deu. 4:35,39 — The LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. And Neh 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens.
But in the New Testament, Yahoshua “ ALONE “ - is the creator of the heavens and the earth.
Deu. 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one.
2 Sam 7:22 —, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Neh 9:6 — Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou has made heaven, the heaven of heavens.
Psa 86:10 — For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.
The word “ Echad / ONE “ can refer to multiple things counted as a whole but the Bible describes the definition of the subject by giving other supporing discriptions to clarify the meaning of how the word is used. For example we all know that a cluster of Grapes is many, many single individual Grapes of a Grape vine or Grape Field.
The word “ Echad / ONE “ would be correctly translated as " A Cluster of Grapes "
You could say " ONE " cluster of grapes - but the word “ Echad / ONE “ means the word " A Certain Person, Place or Thing. "
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bitehoney
Member
Also, rrobs - ↑
here in Isaiah 44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
The LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts are referring to the Lord Yahoshua, The Anointing and His Father,
Saying that they are “ ONE “ God. - One God.
Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
4:35,39 — The ORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Deu. 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD.
Deu.32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no God with me.
2 Sam 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee,.
1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel.
1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
The New Testament also confirms this “ ONENESS “ teaching - meaning Jesus never intended to indicate that He and The Father were one in UNITY.
But the fact is Jesus never uses the Greek word " MIA " and in Greek " MIA " literally means unity. The word that Jesus is always ascribing himself as ONE with the Father is the Greek word ' Hice ' Greek 1520 ε ἱ ͂ς - heis / hice = Meaning a primary numeral; one: - one, only. This Greek word is used 272 times in the Manuscripts and never once. { NEVER ONCE } is it used to mean UNITY.-
__ NEVER.
I believe that the Bible makes this clear by explaining that Yahoshua's existence consisted as He was " IN " inside the bosom of the father. As the Father Himself - creating all things in heaven and earth.
The Bible says that Yahoshua's spirit is literally the - " Very Holy Spirit - The Comforter, that Yahoshua promised would return and be in His bride..
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Yahoshua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
We see that - by looking upon Yahoshua - We are looking at the expressed image of the father's confidence.
Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his confidence, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down " IN " the right of the Majesty on high;
And REMEMBER that no man has seen the father, but or except for Yahoshua alone. Because Yahoshua is in the life stream / bosom of The Father. We do know that Yahwhea / God is an invisible spirit and that He has power to create. The Son created all things, existing Himself - as the Father Himself and He existed in the stream / bosom of the father from before the time of the creation INSIDE the STREAM / BOSOM, LIFE, FLOW of The Father.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is INSIDE / in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
This Greek word bosom is also used in verses such as - Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels INSIDE Abraham's bosom. Also - The Beggar in Joh 1:18 was referred to as a future event. The Beggar was to exist spiritually saved and given eternal life and granted existence INSIDE the future stream of the spiritual bosom as an heir to Abraham or on the path or stream of Abraham.
The Son Of God existed INSIDE the life flow and spiritual bosom and stream of the Father and also existed here on earth - as God Himself, as the Image Of Gods face - filled with the fullness of Gods Holy Spirit. This word bosom is same exact Greek word as CREEK used here in - Act 27:39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain CREEK with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship.
CREEK here means BOSOM and is used as a life flow and a spiritual bosom and spiritual streams of generations and future paths and also the heartbeat, chest area and the lifeblood.
We know that The Bible also says that Yahoshua is literally the Blood of The Holy Spirit........ Acts 20:28 Take heed ...... to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
If the Acts 20:28 verse is declaring that - The Holy Spirit has made overseers over the Church that God Himself has Purchased with His own Blood. Then notice that Yahoshua / - is nowhere mentioned in the subject around / relating to this verse -
we can ask - Is the verse saying indirectly and inadvertently, accidentally, or as if though indicating that Yahoshua Himself, is this very God * whom has shed His own Blood. ?
But - We know that He is, Yet the Bible says that God is the one shedding His blood.
We see that Yahoshua was the manifestation / morph and physical form of The invisible Holy Spirit, taking on the manifestation / morph and physical form of a human servant. Equal to the very Father, manifesting as The Face Of The Father which is a spirit - but taking on the morph / form / image of a servant / man.
Can You understand that Christ was in the bosom, of The Father before He came to earth as Gods son to manifest the face and confidence of The Father.
My final questions to You are - Just because the grapes were " one " cluster couldn't this also be applied to saying that there was " one " single field, single vine or " one " single branch of grapes.
Was not The word { " ONE " Echad } used to describe a single / sole cluster. ? Would not God and His manifestations and Spirit, Body and Fatherly Creative ability - also be used in the same way since the word { " ONE " Echad } means ( ONE and ONLY ONE ? - How is this word used as the word unity when refering to God. ?
here in Isaiah 44:6,8 — Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
The LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts are referring to the Lord Yahoshua, The Anointing and His Father,
Saying that they are “ ONE “ God. - One God.
Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.
4:35,39 — The ORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
Deu. 6:4 — Hear, O Israel: The LORD thy God is one LORD.
Deu.32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no God with me.
2 Sam 7:22 — Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee,.
1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
2 KINGS 5:15 — And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel.
1 Chronicles 17:20 — O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
The New Testament also confirms this “ ONENESS “ teaching - meaning Jesus never intended to indicate that He and The Father were one in UNITY.
But the fact is Jesus never uses the Greek word " MIA " and in Greek " MIA " literally means unity. The word that Jesus is always ascribing himself as ONE with the Father is the Greek word ' Hice ' Greek 1520 ε ἱ ͂ς - heis / hice = Meaning a primary numeral; one: - one, only. This Greek word is used 272 times in the Manuscripts and never once. { NEVER ONCE } is it used to mean UNITY.-
__ NEVER.
I believe that the Bible makes this clear by explaining that Yahoshua's existence consisted as He was " IN " inside the bosom of the father. As the Father Himself - creating all things in heaven and earth.
The Bible says that Yahoshua's spirit is literally the - " Very Holy Spirit - The Comforter, that Yahoshua promised would return and be in His bride..
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Yahoshua saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
We see that - by looking upon Yahoshua - We are looking at the expressed image of the father's confidence.
Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his confidence, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down " IN " the right of the Majesty on high;
And REMEMBER that no man has seen the father, but or except for Yahoshua alone. Because Yahoshua is in the life stream / bosom of The Father. We do know that Yahwhea / God is an invisible spirit and that He has power to create. The Son created all things, existing Himself - as the Father Himself and He existed in the stream / bosom of the father from before the time of the creation INSIDE the STREAM / BOSOM, LIFE, FLOW of The Father.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is INSIDE / in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
This Greek word bosom is also used in verses such as - Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels INSIDE Abraham's bosom. Also - The Beggar in Joh 1:18 was referred to as a future event. The Beggar was to exist spiritually saved and given eternal life and granted existence INSIDE the future stream of the spiritual bosom as an heir to Abraham or on the path or stream of Abraham.
The Son Of God existed INSIDE the life flow and spiritual bosom and stream of the Father and also existed here on earth - as God Himself, as the Image Of Gods face - filled with the fullness of Gods Holy Spirit. This word bosom is same exact Greek word as CREEK used here in - Act 27:39 And when it was day, they knew not the land: but they discovered a certain CREEK with a shore, into the which they were minded, if it were possible, to thrust in the ship.
CREEK here means BOSOM and is used as a life flow and a spiritual bosom and spiritual streams of generations and future paths and also the heartbeat, chest area and the lifeblood.
We know that The Bible also says that Yahoshua is literally the Blood of The Holy Spirit........ Acts 20:28 Take heed ...... to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
If the Acts 20:28 verse is declaring that - The Holy Spirit has made overseers over the Church that God Himself has Purchased with His own Blood. Then notice that Yahoshua / - is nowhere mentioned in the subject around / relating to this verse -
we can ask - Is the verse saying indirectly and inadvertently, accidentally, or as if though indicating that Yahoshua Himself, is this very God * whom has shed His own Blood. ?
But - We know that He is, Yet the Bible says that God is the one shedding His blood.
We see that Yahoshua was the manifestation / morph and physical form of The invisible Holy Spirit, taking on the manifestation / morph and physical form of a human servant. Equal to the very Father, manifesting as The Face Of The Father which is a spirit - but taking on the morph / form / image of a servant / man.
Can You understand that Christ was in the bosom, of The Father before He came to earth as Gods son to manifest the face and confidence of The Father.
My final questions to You are - Just because the grapes were " one " cluster couldn't this also be applied to saying that there was " one " single field, single vine or " one " single branch of grapes.
Was not The word { " ONE " Echad } used to describe a single / sole cluster. ? Would not God and His manifestations and Spirit, Body and Fatherly Creative ability - also be used in the same way since the word { " ONE " Echad } means ( ONE and ONLY ONE ? - How is this word used as the word unity when refering to God. ?
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
Heck, how could you not smile knowing what God has done for us!
RE: Echad
This is what I got from The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible by Jeff A. Benner:
I don't really remember exactly what I said about echad, but that is where I got the idea of it including the idea of unity.
I'm not sure if you believe the trinity or not, but to be clear, I do not believe in the trinity nor that Jesus is God. He was, as the scriptures say 47 times, the son of God. Jesus is my Lord and my savior who loved me and gave himself for me. He always did the father's will instead of his own (Luk 22:42). He was one with God in the same sense Paul and Apollos were one (1 Cor 3:8), i.e. they we one in purpose and goal. We are also called one with them by Jesus in John (John 17:21,22).
I've done several posts on the trinity that explain my position further.
Take care...